Now say to your self

[willy]

You guys all make good points, but some different perspective for you from years of observation as a parent and the other end when they go bad.
There most certainly is, without a doubt kids that go bad inspite of good parents and good upbringing with all the values taught and dicipline when needed.
I don't know if it is peer group learning, just genetically a badseed or those and a dozen other causes such as drugs etc. but they go bad inspite of the best parenting, I've seen it dozens of times and it is a heartbreaker when I do.
Sometimes I hear others comment about the parents when some a$$hole kid does something and its on the news or some other group setting and it makes me upset because I know better.