No more middle class???

[RWilson2526]

Willy, here is my problem with Glen Beck...I've been watching his show lately and this is where I disagree. If someone has any desire to implement or even discuss anything that is traditionally labeled "progressive" he paints a broad brush and calls them "communists or socialists" and all the bad parts of those movements that came along with them in our world history. ( not to mention the dramatic way he does it like we should all be so appalled)

Let me ask you this and be honest...if some how magically every person in this country, or world for that matter could be taken care of medically with quaility care, and it was somehow paid for equitably wouldnt that be just the best thing ever? Or if we had a world economy without politics involved where now instead of having 300 million US customers I could sell my widgets to I had 6 billion people without having to worry about trade laws and embargos and taxes and all the other bull**** that our world politics brings with it.

Call me a progressive or communist or whatever you want but in THEORY universal healthcare and a world economy would be a GOOD thing but with the "current world order" it will never happen. You have to admit our current worlds political system is rediculous. But if you imagine changing it you just said basically that you want a "new world order" and Glenn Beck automatically says that means we are not at the top of this order and the world will come to an end.

The problem is with our current political 2 party system is someone cant even attempt to dream about that kind of thing without being called a "Socialist or Communist" by the Republican party and the whole machine comes to a grinding to a halt.

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by RWilson2526

Willy, here is my problem with Glen Beck...I've been watching his show lately and this is where I disagree. If someone has any desire to implement or even discuss anything that is traditionally labeled "progressive" he paints a broad brush and calls them "communists or socialists" and all the bad parts of those movements that came along with them in our world history. ( not to mention the dramatic way he does it like we should all be so appalled)

Nothing wrong with a little showmanship. If what he is saying is the truth, then how he says it is not important. I like him simply because he is so dramatic. Who wants to be watching a boring college professor type of person give you tons of facts without any emotion. He backs up everything he says or writes about with video tapes or recordings or whatever... He's not lying like most politicians and "newscasters" you see today. I see him as a deeply religious, almost finatical patriot that is trying to educate people to what is happening in our Country.

Let me ask you this and be honest...if some how magically every person in this country, or world for that matter could be taken care of medically with quaility care, and it was somehow paid for equitably wouldnt that be just the best thing ever? Or if we had a world economy without politics involved where now instead of having 300 million US customers I could sell my widgets to I had 6 billion people without having to worry about trade laws and embargos and taxes and all the other bull**** that our world politics brings with it.

No, I don't think it would be, and I'll tell you why. The simple fact is we are all humans, and, like everyone else, I would love to just sit back and have everything given to me for free. When you give everything to everyone for free it destroys incentive. It makes you lazy. And when you become lazy you don't care about what people are doing as long as you are getting "yours". But what happens is that not everyone is a purist, driven by an overwhelming need to help their fellow citizen. Some people are simply greedy. Be it for money, fame or power, they want more. And the way they get more is by controling you and having you work for them.
Sure, they will give you some "benefits" like "free" health care (that you are really paying for anyways)...but while you are eating hot dogs and hamburgers and being happy that you have food they are traveling around the world dining on lobster and steak that you paid for. Don't you see Rob? It's a trap. They are setting a trap for the entire Nation...

Call me a progressive or communist or whatever you want but in THEORY universal healthcare and a world economy would be a GOOD thing but with the "current world order" it will never happen. You have to admit our current worlds political system is rediculous. But if you imagine changing it you just said basically that you want a "new world order" and Glenn Beck automatically says that means we are not at the top of this order and the world will come to an end.

I won't call you any of those things. I'll call you my friend if I may. Perhaps a bit naive, but my friend nevertheless. No, even in theory universal health care and a world economy is not a good thing. Our Country didn't become as great as it was by leaching on the backs of others. It was only by hard work and perseverance that we got where we are. And if we want to stay at the top of the heap, then that's how we do it. As soon as we start looking to the government to provide us with things we start losing our freedom. The more they "provide", the more we lose. In the end, they have everything, they control you, and you have nothing. I'm really not ready to give up my freedom just yet.

The problem is with our current political 2 party system is someone cant even attempt to dream about that kind of thing without being called a "Socialist or Communist" by the Republican party and the whole machine comes to a grinding to a halt.

I've dreamt about it several times... it's called a nightmare. I have no desire to have someone take the fruits of my labor and give it to someone else that isn't doing a damn thing except holding out their hand. I'm not toaking about the injured or people that are mentally challanged.. I'm talking about perfectly healthy people that are playing the system. Why should they work when they can get everything for free?

I don't think it's the Republican party anymore that's driving the car. It's the Independants. The Tea Party activists, if you need to call them a label. They are the ones that are trying to halt the machine. And thank God they are. When over 80% of the people say they are against health care and our elected representives still decide to vote it in, then it's time to realize that they are not representing us, the nation. They are representing the special interests that are funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to them. They are (in my humble opinon) traitors that should meet the same fate as any person the betrays their country and their countrymen.

We all need to pray to whatever God you believe in for guidance and for salvation. Without his help, I fear that our Country will be lost to our children and their children for centurys to come.

[Seacurity]

amen!

[Blue_Runner]

I believe life is what you make of it. If at any point we get fed up with this country, guess what???

There are over 190 countries in the world to choose from!

[Seacurity]

Originally Posted by Blue_Runner

I believe life is what you make of it. If at any point we get fed up with this country, guess what???

There are over 190 countries in the world to choose from!

Sure that would be easy if you are a loner and have no family to leave behind. Besides, why run? Why don't we try and fix what we broke and get back to the USA we all feel so proud of????

[Blue_Runner]

I think you missed my point Sea, I was trying to make the point that each of us are in full control of our own destiny, with a little humor thrown in (which was the reason for the c o c k-eyed, push-up, tongue waggin' smiley at the end).

[RWilson2526]

I've dreamt about it several times... it's called a nightmare. I have no desire to have someone take the fruits of my labor and give it to someone else that isn't doing a damn thing except holding out their hand. I'm not toaking about the injured or people that are mentally challanged.. I'm talking about perfectly healthy people that are playing the system. Why should they work when they can get everything for free?


Points well taken. But what you have up there is exactly the Glen Beckian thought that I am talking about. Your taking a potentially workable idea and throwing it out without discussion because you dont want to see lazy bastards get something they dont deserve.

And I could not agree with you more about that and without a shadow of a doubt those people exist and are benefiting from alot of Democratic polices that are in place now. I'll be the first one to tell you that 99 weeks of unemployment is too much. We occasionally lay guys off that have worked for us (although never for lack of work, just because they suck or are a pain in the ***) and its comical how just about when unemployment is running out you hear they are starting to beat the bushes looking for work......they'd have been looking alot sooner if they new that next check wasnt coming.

So because we have a percentage of the population that are dead beats working the system we are going to dismiss health care reform that could possibly help many people. I dont think the problem is the idea its the execution....2000 pages long and that jack *** pelosi saying you'll have to vote for it to find out whats in it.

I personally know alot of working class people that strictly CAN NOT AFFORD DECENT HEALTH CARE FOR THEIR FAMILY. And its just plain wrong....but we are going to ignore all those problems because we dont want some scumbag gettin a free ride....how about we do something about it and then find out how to get the scumbags off our dime....


When my son broke his leg the total billed to our insurance company was $32,000 for a broken leg. Fortunately for my family our health benefits are outstanding (through the evil teachers union) and did not cost me more than about $50 out of pocket for some co pays.....the insurance company paid about $22,500 which the providers accepted as full payment. Now if I didnt have insurance how much would I have owed, 22,500 or $32,000? Who the hell knows....Ask any insurance actuary how to get insurance rates down and they will tell you to get a bigger pool of customers. Have one insurance company instead of the amount we have now and rates will drop.

Another big part in the healthcare reform is mandatory digitizing of patient records....With my moms current illness a myriad of doctors came in ordering test upon test....fortunately my sister being an RN and there every day with her was able to point out on about a half dozen occasions that that particular test was just ordered by the last doctor and completed. A complete waste of money......

All these things need to be fixed but there are those that wont even address the damn bill because they think its a slippery slope to nationalized medicine by the "obamination"....

It's rediculous.....yes this country is in trouble because of all the labeling bull**** and stereotyping generalizations that politics has become....and I would rather be on the side wanting to change it than the side that just wants it be the way it used to be. Things will probably never be the way it used to be...This is not the 1930's isolationism or the 1950's post world war with a vast open country and vast amounts of natural resources....its not the era of the tech boom where businesses flourished putting a pc on every desk and a cell phone in every hand and a dot com on every screen....times are changing and we need to as well.

I will be the first to admit I am naive but I would like to call it optimism. I refuse to admit there is an evil empire in the white house right now that wants to chain me like a dog to work for him.....I'm just not doing it.

[Seacurity]

Originally Posted by Blue_Runner

I think you missed my point Sea, I was trying to make the point that each of us are in full control of our own destiny, with a little humor thrown in (which was the reason for the c o c k-eyed, push-up, tongue waggin' smiley at the end).

Got yah!

[reelapeelin]

As long as LOBBYISTS are allowed to run around handing out money to our greedy politicians, none of this entire discussion or any discussion about politics is worth having...in case you haven't noticed, this has become a government FOR the Special Intersts BY the Lobbyists...I'm done talkin about politics...waste of time...how about a good thread about fornicating bugs or somethin'!!...

[RidgeRunner]

Nicely put Destroyer and Willy. There are only two distinct classes. The working class, comprised of anyone with a job, retired or those who by no fault of their own are without a job but looking, and the outta class who have found a way to work the system to their advantage. The redistrubution of wealth pisses me off and only serves to create generation after generation of the same outta class people sucking up my tax dollars. If you find yourself in this category without any skills or education, why would you give up the gravy train government handouts to climb aboard the working class bandwagon. For starters, you are already getting a better deal taking what the government is handing out than you would working a minimum wage job. If you don't think you are getting enough government help you can always have another child or three.(The system rewards you for that) Your employer may require a drug test, as mine does, so you would likely need to quit drinking and doing drugs to get hired in the first place, because you will be required to take responsibility for your actions and show up on time.(Basically becoming a contributing member of the Republic) Then after 10 years working dead end jobs and getting your EIC every year (That would be the refund of all that you paid in for the year in Income Taxes plus a bit of what I paid in for the year) you will aspire to earn enough money so that you can turn around and give roughly 10% (soon to be 15%) of your hard working money to the government (IRS) so they can dole it out to all those who are milking the system and have no intention of working (See Obama's Illegal Immigrant Kenyan Auntie Living in Massachussetts Government Housing and collecting a Social Security Check) To the libs in Mass, WTF? (Off track? Yes, Because politics in Mass are way the he// of track.)

The working class has some really rich guys, not all are poor like me. Some of those really rich guys were directly responsible for running GM and Chrysler into Bankruptcy. Yet others start corporations and hire workers to make things or offer services. I am in the same class. I choose to collaborate with the businessman that pays my wage. If I am lucky and work hard I too may become rich by moving up the ladder or starting my own business. That is why I vote Republican. "Republicans are for the rich" is a misguided concept. I hear it all the time from the liberal media. A poor man voting for a Democrat is the right thing to do because the Democrats will protect the working class. Horse Hockey! Democrats will keep the Entitlements coming and in doing so foster the lazy folks lifestyle. Republicans know how to get things done and because they like money they will use the money they have to create more by investing in business, investing in the future. What future is there with entitlements? By the way nearly all of our Congress are lawyers and most are millionaires Democrats and Republicans alike. The Dems talk big about taxing the rich at a much higher rate, it would directly affect their net worth so I ain't buying it. Lip service at best.

Obviously, nothing changes overnight. But my point is that handouts DO CREATE LAZY INDIVIDUALS. For the outta class to go to work at this point is inconceivable. We need jobs. We need to prop up the value of the dollar so that it will have more staying power and we need to drop crude off the CME. Nothing creates inflation like $100 +/barrel crude. Everything we consume (unless you live on a farm) gets to the final destination with fuel. And unless you are Ahmish, your farm uses tractors that run on fuel. Prohibit the shorting of the markets. Throw a few of the high profile, white collar types in jail for their counterproductive greed. Is Martha Stewart the only one that got caught with her hand in the cookie jar? Let's have an accounting of where every dollar really goes. Gut the government spending on foreign aid, consider military spending cuts. The pukeface liberal godless hippie Bill Maher claims we spend more on military spending than the next twelve countries combined. Is that really necessary? Where does all that money go? I mean are we still procuring hammers at $25/copy, $50 toilet seats? Take it all the way to the State and local government agencies. Every division of government has a budget, they spend every dime of their budget so they can get the same dollar amount or more when next years budget is passed. They never have to show a profit or justify their expenditures and that is why the government run programs will never be efficient. Hold them all accountable, right down to their pay which is outpacing the private sector.

To RWilson, great pics in your other thread BTW. Nice family you have there and above all else on this site, nice V. I kind of know what you are saying and I agree that people in politics are responsible from both sides of the isle but the European Democracy will cause our taxes to go up and with all the waste, I say NO WAY. Growing the government is not the answer. None of our current systems are efficient why would you assume new systems would be? I am not picking a fight, I respect your opinion.
We are all in the same boat, Pun Intended.

I am taxed at the highest level I am comfortable with now. Especially if you consider inflation / loss of retirement / 4 year wage freeze etc. If the government can't figure a way to make ends meet and leave me the he// alone I can assure you they will only get less in the future. I have been told by our great govt. to tighten the belt, so ordered. I have been told that retirement investments will come back (three times in my life now) BS! I am not panicked, I am trenched in with no trust in our financial system or hope for any change. I see another huge correction in the stock market soon. They called it wrong, the recession ain't over folks. The economy barely has a pulse.

In the words of Nancy Pelosi, "We aren't going to do anything until November when we have a new President." Nov- 2007 At the time I thought that odd because people were already hurting and we were already over a year into the recession, I mean what a time for party politics. In hindsight that was a step in the right direction in light of the taxpayer money that was wasted ramming Obamacare (Unconstitutional) down our throats and the fat cat bailouts that Bush started at the end of his presidency which Obama carried on. Pelosi should be hung as a traitor. The behind closed doors deals, introducing bills at 2:00 a.m., "We need to pass the bill so that everyone can see what's in it." Really Nancy, I may not be the only one that has tried to contact her on this site. Unless you are in her district, GOOD LUCK. Her constituents are fruits and nuts, last I knew HIV was still rampant in her district. HIV Positive = Not likely to obtain medical insurance, Obamacare fixes that. Coincidence?

Let's get back to some good old fashioned Parliamentary Procedure and let us have some Transparency that we were promised. Cut the pork barrel spending, amend the tax laws and close the loop holes. Make it harder to stay on welfare indefinitely.

If Obamacare IS NOT repealed or found Unconstitutional we will need to change a very old saying, "Nothing is certain in life except Death, Taxes and Obamacare."

Less National Lampoon and More Clear and Present Danger. That's all I got... Sorry if it offends, I am outta here and promise not to argue. Refute if you can rebut if you must...