No more middle class???

[willy]

RW I do agree there is a lot of labeling going around. Some labeling is accurate and some misleading. I have never been one in my life to lump people into groups, or play group and identity politics.
In truth, there is a political party that has been doing that with Americans for decades and I have watched it year after year and so have you. What has been said and done with the black population in this country is a classic example. Never in history has so much been done for a minority that has been done here. Government figures indicate over six trillion dollars in the past six decades. Yet though many have taken advantage of all the money, programs, education, health care and job preferences etc. the FBI Uniform Crime Report indicates every year that over 70 % of the violent crime in our nation is committed by 5% of our population, black males between the ages of 16-26.
Illegitimate child birth is rising with over 50% of black children born out of wedlock with no father around. Drop out rates in schools among blacks is over 60% in all our urban areas. Food stamps, welfare social security medicare all rising every year.
They are a dependent society, and their so called leaders are millionaires seeking power and money keeping them there as are the Democratic Party who are using them for their own political gain.
The same is done separating Americans in dozens of other ways, Christians, ***s, blacks, whites, Hispanics, Conservative, moderate, etc.
This is the ability in which the democratic party has really shined, and gained power doing it.
In reality all of these groups have more in common than most realize.
In a nutshell what Beck does is provide you facts, facts a bought and agenda based press will not let you see. Sometimes I find his personality a little odd, but I know this, he loves America, all of America regardless of your skin color, religion or ethnic background. And he, like myself will not allow our nation to fail in our generation. He like myself strongly believe that while government and the belief in God have to remain separate they are intertwined and that our Nation was founded on the Judeo Christian principles and that to deny or trivialize that is foolish, stupid, and a lie.
As far as having universal health care, well I do like the idea, I like many of the Utopian ideals I have seen in my life, like universal peace, universal sharing of all the worlds resources, universal hot chics for all the retired Police Detectives, etc. etc.
One problem, they do not work, we do not have the money for it, we are in such financial debt right now that our nation may not survive.
Read that again, we may not survive.
In every nation where it is in place it is a utter, catastrophic failure. It causes health care quality to decline tremendously, causes humongous debt, and leads inevitably to rationing of care to the elderly and the young.
In a few countries like Sweden it is sort of working by huge taxes on the working population, and the people are given the option to go and buy supplementary health care to cover their illnesses because the national plan cannot afford it.
Do you see world leaders flying to Sweden for serious medical care? I don't think so, they come here because it is the best. That will change dramatically and very quickly under Obamacare. As it has in England, France, Canada and every other industrialized nation that has implemented various versions of it.
I got an idea though, and I think Americans working together can make what we have even better.
What we do is follow our Constitution, restrict the Federal Government to 1/3 its current size, we follow free market principles and use the power of the free market to force down costs, we establish health care groups that buy in mass and we take some of the money that the federal government has been stealing from its citizens and use it as buying leverage for those who have a legitimate need for help.
We restrict social security to what it was originally supposed to be, to help the elderly that have not got the ability to take care of themselves and not put a gigantic multi generational dependent society face first into the trough.
You see this country was founded on principles that we can govern ourselves, we do not need a giant centralized government to take care of us. In fact history has showed repeatedly that every single nation with such a powerful government became corrupt, immoral and eventually brutal to its citizens. And it has failed.
The American Experiment was for free men to lead themselves and to act responsibly to their countrymen and their families, respect the beliefs of others and to keep what they earn. To live in a free market society.
Every single problem we have in this nation today can be traced back to the divergence we have allowed our Federal Government to commit.

[RidgeRunner]

Dammit Reel, I nearly forgot those pesky special interest groups. We have a few lobbying for our cause right now in the Lumber Business. You are correct. They have a lot of a$$ in Washington. BTW- Social Security and Medicare are not the same entitlement programs I was bashing. Those receiving those benefits had to pay their dues. It is the freeloaders that get under my skin. Wilson was typing as I was. No doubt we need REFORM. REFORM the whole damn thing. No argument here.

[macojoe]

I was born poor and will die poor! I go up and down over the years but I always end up on the sh!t end of the stick!!
I have been on the up swing the last 2 years but I just started down hill again slow but sure!
But like blue says its what you make of it!

[THEFERMANATOR]

In my earlier posts I was not blaming obama solely, as there is MORE than enough blame to go around on BOTH sides of the fence. My point is though that with the o at the wheel of the bus, he has dropped it into double overdrive, floored it, and is gunning down everything that remains of the US, our values, and the constitution. I digress though as he is but a cog in the vehicle that is doing everything it can to collapse us.

Since healthcare was brought up, let me put some info out there for ya'll to ponder. 9 1/2 years ago I was in a SERIOUS car accident where the doctors told me at the hospital to say goodbye to my family when I was admitted as it would be my last chance to. Needless to say I survived, but am left in rough shape afterwards. My medical bills passed $100K in my first weekend there(admitted on a Friday night at 11:50PM), and after my first week had passed over $250K with the ICU bill. All and all my bills surpassed a million dollars after the year of surgeries, therapy, and recovery. I had full coverage auto ins(which in a no fault state isn't much really), and luckily I had just signed up for a cheap HMO at work through AETNA. IIRC I paid out about $5K out of my pocket in deductables and non covered items, and the insurance companies paid out about $60K to cover over a MILLION dollars in bills. There was still about $100K left that were put into liens in case I ever got a settlement(aint that great, the bill was paid but if I got money down the road magicall ythey were entitled to more money), which I believe my attorney settled for about $10K during litigation.

Now if seeing over a MILLION dollars in bills get settled for less than $100K doesn't get you riled up, then I don't know what will. What about those people that don't have insurance? They are stuck with that HUGE bill that will follow them forever. But those with insurance can get it all for pennies on the dollar. So do I think we need healthcare reform, HE!! YES! Do we need obamacare, FU$K NO! Even as bad a shape as I am in, even I don't want obamacare, OR any of his entitlement programs. I know I could be getting over a grand every month, and not have to do anything but sit on the couch and watch TV, but instead I go out and work through the pain, and make a few dollars here and there to get the bills paid until I can find a job that will actually accept an application from me without laughing when they hear about my injuries and restrictions.

This country is in bad shape when somebody like me who is actually hurt and probably should be on the government plan isn't(heck, I'm even part indian and have been told I'm a complete idiot because I'm not signed up to get money for that too). The government programs will do nothing but lead to millions more people everday deciding why work when I can get it for nothing. I say reform healthcare and make it affordable to have medical care. Why should an anesthesiologist's union(not even the dr, but his union) get $2300 everytime he puts somebody under anesthesia? Why should a pack of guaze in an O.R. cost you $800 just because it was brought in during surgery? It all goes back to overspending and fraud at the government level, as it is spilling over into other areas. And if you think nationalizing it, and giving the keys to the government to run will help anything. Then I'm afraid you are mistaken.

I am all for reform, but not limited to any category. I feel reform needs to be done over MANY areas. And it needs to start with AMERICA going back to AMERICAN values, morals, principles, and the CONSTISTUTION! Don't just point the finger at one side when there are some on BOTH sides who are guilty, AND some on both sides who are good. The big problems we face today can be traced back to DC, and the monster we have allowed it to become. The way to fix these problems though lies in the people, and MUST begin with the people.

[willy]

Ferm, well said my friend. And I respect the h@ll out of what you have done.
I believe very strongly that most of our biggest problems have been caused or aggravated by Washington.
As a follow up to what I said earlier, free market principles will do a lot for the costs of health care, but because of certain things the government has in the way prevent it from happening and one in particular has the costs of health care and many other things criminally thru the roof.
It is reform of our civil litigation laws, some politicians have tried to do it and have been lambasted by the democrats and the lame stream media. Some states have changed and restricted their laws and have seen a tremendous drop in litigation and costs but do to the federal laws have not been able to cut it as dramatically as it needs to be.
For doctors and medical practitioners, hospitals it is as much as 50% of their cost of doing buisness, both for insurance and for lawyer based edicts forced upon them by a civil court.
But just about every single one of these sh!theads that gets elected is a lawyer, and the insurance companies are big contributors to these lawyers so getting anything done has been buried by them.
The people know, the govt. knows, the lawyers all know, but when Congressman Ryan (rep) tried to bring it up as part of an alternative plan for health care reform the republicans were summarily dismissed by the democrats.
You see, the lawyer lobby, and the insurance lobby along with the unions are the some of the biggest contributors to the demo/socialist party.
Can you imagine what Tort Reform would do in this country to reduce costs on health care industry alone.
Forget about the costs on all of our industry, businesses of every kind.
Removing barriers from buyers being able to buy insurance from across state lines, allowing not for profit groups to set up group plans and be able to buy insurance and medicine from anywhere.
Low cost plans could be put together, catastrophic illness plans can be set up for those with existing illnesses to help all families with the major insurers, the government and the medical profession all contributing to make it happen for our people with some type of general small tax on everyone.
And by everyone I mean everyone. No more of this crap where now 50% of the people in this nation recieve more in benefits/entitlements from the federal government than they have paid in, where 50% of our population pays ZERO income tax.
Thats right, 50% of our population pays ZERO, income tax.
We all need to stand up and correct this path we are on and come up with free market, free people solutions to this and get this 800 lb vicious gorilla off our backs before it wakes up and realizes it can do whatever it feels like.

[Destroyer]

Damnit Willy... you just said what I was about to say in your last post. Well said my friend.

Websters says that naive is: Naive is a French loanword (adjective, form of naïf) indicating having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication. I don't know about the sophistication, because I consider myself very sophisticated. (After all, I drive a fancy, dancy Land Rover.) But I, like everyone else here, is naive in one thing or another. Hell, I'm 66 years old and I still don't understand women, so I'm naive in that subject. Point being that no one should take any offense if I say I think they are naive about a particular subject. It's not a slur or an insult, nor should it be looked at that way.

Lets talk for a second about RW's comment(s). Basically, he said that in a perfect society Universal Health Care is a good idea. And I find, after thinking it through, that he's correct and I'm the one that was naive. There's nothing wrong with wanting everyone in the world having equal, quality health care. Truthfully, it's the Christian thing to desire. And, while I'm not sure that it would take a world government to administer something like that, it's an idea that could be explored. So in that respect, and in that respect only, yes, it's a good idea.

The problem is, of course, there is no perfect society. Nor, for that matter, will there ever be one. As long as there is just one person somewhere in the world that is the least bit greedy, just the least bit power hungry, the idea is doomed to failure.

Tort reform is needed. There are people that will say that it's just a small percentage of the costs, but they are wrong. Fear of lawsuits drives everything in our nation now. Just look on the TV... you see ads by lawyers telling you to sue over second hand smoke, and all medications you took in your lifetime, asbestos related illness, accidents, toothpaste, (yes toothpaste) etc etc etc. You hear quick little blurbs on the radio telling you the legal things about car ads, etc. My point is the costs of defending yourself against lawsuits from greedy...yes, I said GREEDY lawyers that make 1/3 to 1/2 of whatever they win in a lawsuit are astronomical. Not only hospitals, but everyone and every company related to health care is burdened by this unnessary expense. So tort reform is first on the list of reforms.
Next, lets look at reforms about buying insurance across state lines. Right now you or your employer can only buy health insurance from companies allowed to operate in your state. So, even though you might be able to buy less costly insurance from a different company in another state you're prohibited from doing so by law. Change the laws... allow free market competition and see how fast the prices drop.
I can go on and on.. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are dozens of areas where real, effective cost savings can be made without sacraficing any quality of health care. We, as a group and as a nation, need to start demanding of our elected reps that they actually do something instead of just giving us lip service while they continue to take huge sums of money from drug, lawyer and insurance lobbys. If they don't, they don't get my vote. Nor should they get yours.

[RWilson2526]

Great dialogue guys...good information and opinions from all of you especially Willy , Destoyer and Ridgerunner....

Thanks for the compliments on the family and the boat Ridge.....you're right thats whats most important around here anyway!..

And Paul....dont think for a second you insulted me with the naive comment....you can certainly call me your friend as I do you and all the rest of you snaggers (as Willy likes to call ya!)....