Very sad

[THEFERMANATOR]

Originally Posted by RWilson2526

I don't think its true that a whole class is brought down to the level of the least abled student. This is my wife's area of expertise as she is a School Pyschologist and is responsible for designing a classified students IEP. (Individualized Education Plan). Special needs children have any combination of aids, in class support, pull out support (go into a separate class room for their studies) and greatly modified curriculum and goals set to suit their needs and abilities. And the severely disabled ones are sent out of district to a school more geared towards special needs children. (at an expense of t) At least here the mainstreaming is more for the social benefits of the child and as far as I can tell the other students don't suffer from the presence of these children. You may be right that that is how it works in Florida but it certainly is not that way here.

And yes the pay scale in NJ is one of the best for teachers although we have never seen a NJ district with a starting salary of 70K it is the norm to be in the low to mid 40's. (all the pay scales are public information and my wife looks them up frequently) But the way I look at it is the problem lies with the states that pay $32000 for a person with 6 years of college like Phatdaddy's daughter.

My wifes cousin will be making $68K starting salary if he gets the job he is trying for next year after he graduates. I know this is on the high end, but even the starting salary in NJ is MUCh higher than waht most seasoned teachers make elsewhere. As for IEP's, my wife has to do them as she works with alot of special needs kids(in Fl the teacher is responsible for doing teh IEP's for kids). She interned with a kid that had asburgers, and it just stuck with her since as she likes helping them. But she does feel bad though as many of them cannot keep up in a classroom envirment as they are so hiper sensitive to the enviroment. They are not challenged as far as doing the work, but they are challenged largely by there social skills(although she has had to deal with kids who just couldn't do the work, and they would get passed as the schools don't get money unless they pass them). As for discipline in the classroom, schools are now penalized(at least down here) for giving a kid a refferral and sending them to the office, so many times the office will tear up the refferral and over ride teh teacher as they don't want it on record just how many kids have discipline problems.

It would seem that every area is differrent, but as a whole our liberal agenda driven views of PC and one society is dividing us in my opinion.

[randlemanboater]

My wife has been teaching for almost 20 years and is a Nationally Certified Teacher, she doesn't make NJ starting pay.

But we don't have to live in NJ either...no offense to you NJ boiz.

[lumberslinger178]

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

Anothe good question is why do teachers in NJ start off at $46-70K a year whereas most any other state starts off at 30-35K a year? I realize teh cost of living in Jersey is high, but alot of this I feel is brought on by the unions demanding higher pay for everybody(the whole trickle down economics).

As for the origanal discussion, I personally feel that political correctness is destroying our educational system. Since this post has started, I have questioned my wife a bit(without her knowing why) on some of the things she has to deal with as well as classroom size. I know this will come off mean and heartless to many, but why are we mainstreaming children who have actual severe learning disabilities? There are kids in her classes that can't hardly read, and will probably never be able to hold a job other than a bag boy at a grocery store. Yet these kids are in the mainstream population, so EVERY kid in the district must learn at the slowest kids rate. This in turn causes the entire state to slow down, and then rewrite the tests and how they do things so they can keep the numbers showing that the educational system is working. I know that this isn't the only issue by a long shot, and lazy parents of the nintendo generation are largely to blame for much of this as well(if the nintendo generation is this bad, imagine how bad the latest ones will be that don't socialize except for facebook).

There is much blame to go around, but I feel that alot of it can be blamed on political correctness and the whole liberal agenda.

Ferm the starting salary for teachers in our district is 34-36K other towns pay a lot more ...and the closer you get to the getto the higher that salary
.... It sounds like a high starting salary but its not.... I'm not living in the lap of luxury were living week to week.

[RidgeRunner]

Wilson,

Severely disabled children are sent to special schools here in FL as well. There are some students that should be considered severely disabled but are not and some that are seriously disabled that make it through with a lot of special assistance. I know some of these children personally and their parents jump the moon to make sure their child maintains at least the minimum standards so they can continue in their grade or a grade level behind. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
An example of what I meant when I said the teachers teach to the least advanced child. Assume -The first FCAT is given to 3rd graders at the end of the school year. At the beginning of the year the Third Grade teacher has 22 children and 2 are new to the school and appear to be six months behind the rest of the students in the class.(It happens every year as Florida has a large population of migrant workers, military, influx of tourist etc.) Even if none of the students were considered special needs and the two new students were fast learners the teacher has a dilemma. Passing percentiles on the FCAT will ultimately determine the teachers pay and or their job. If they want to remain a teacher, it seems like they would adapt their lesson plan to ensure the best outcome. That is what I would do and that is what they are instructed to do.
My cousin is a teacher in FL, she has her Masters and probably makes $40K a year, she works at Fruitland Park with the seriously disabled. Even though Florida requires the passing of the FCAT in order to get a diploma the school system evaluates each case and pass them through the system when it doesn't make sense to keep them in the system any longer. Sometimes children are mainstreamed because it is about development of social skills and maturation that comes with the school regiment. Even though they will be grossly unprepared, they mingle amoungst us every day. They dropped the cirriculum a while back but I do recall when public school used to teach some life lessons and even some trades. home economics, wood shop, auto shop. They need to throw in a class on Child care. Nope, they just want you passing the FCAT.

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by RidgeRunner

They dropped the cirriculum a while back but I do recall when public school used to teach some life lessons and even some trades. home economics, wood shop, auto shop. They need to throw in a class on Child care. Nope, they just want you passing the FCAT.

My first son was a product of that type of class. He has a reading disability, and it makes it hard for him to comprehend the written word. He can read something over and over and just not understand it, but show him something once or twice and he locks onto it like a Terrier. Anyways, because of this the schools in Toms River had him in a program where he went to school for the morning, and in the afternoon he worked in a trade (HVAC) as an apprentance. By the time he graduated high school he was well on his way towards aquiring his blue seal refrigeration license. He lives in Az now, is 43, owns his own HVAC company and employs 12 people. (And yes, I'm very proud of him) Point being that the system worked well back then (mid 80's) So what happened? how did we get so far down this very bleak road? And how do we get back

[THEFERMANATOR]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

My first son was a product of that type of class. He has a reading disability, and it makes it hard for him to comprehend the written word. He can read something over and over and just not understand it, but show him something once or twice and he locks onto it like a Terrier. Anyways, because of this the schools in Toms River had him in a program where he went to school for the morning, and in the afternoon he worked in a trade (HVAC) as an apprentance. By the time he graduated high school he was well on his way towards aquiring his blue seal refrigeration license. He lives in Az now, is 43, owns his own HVAC company and employs 12 people. (And yes, I'm very proud of him) Point being that the system worked well back then (mid 80's) So what happened? how did we get so far down this very bleak road? And how do we get back

As you pointed it out, he had issues that the school recognized and educated him for something he could do. Now all they care about is to get the test scores for the money, so the kids aren't being thought of as people who need educating but as a paycheck and they're each a dollar sign now.

[RidgeRunner]

Big thumbs up on trade schools and On the Job Training programs. I participated in the same program in high school. Even served a term as President of our Diversified Cooperative Training Program in my senior year. That is as close to politics as I ever want to get. Taught me the ins and outs of parliamentary procedure and how bogged down the process can get.
With education there are so many variables it would be damn difficult to find any one part that couldn't use some tweaking. The student has to be motivated and want to learn. Until they get to that point by coersion of parents, teacher, or self motivated, they are going to be difficult to teach. I have always had it easy and I was somewhat rebellious in high school. I didn't want to be there. I wanted to party and make money. I was a slacker in school, did very little homework and managed to pull B's and C's. I have some regret for not applying myself better in school. What a waste of time, the teachers, fellow students, taxpayers, not to mention my parents money in college. I started to see the light in my sophomore year (third year) and actually learned how to study. (I took Engineering Calculus three times before I finally gave up my career as a engineer.) I took extra classes and worked hard. Ended up with a double major in business school at USF. So Wilson, I was a case where the teacher had to teach to a lesser standard.

Kudos to you Destroyer and son. That is a great outcome right there.

On the Classic Seacraft site there is a guy with a sig line that says,
"If you done it, it aint bragging."

[spareparts]

how ironic

http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-of...110202341.html

[RWilson2526]

Originally Posted by RidgeRunner

Big thumbs up on trade schools and On the Job Training programs. I participated in the same program in high school. Even served a term as President of our Diversified Cooperative Training Program in my senior year. That is as close to politics as I ever want to get. Taught me the ins and outs of parliamentary procedure and how bogged down the process can get.
With education there are so many variables it would be damn difficult to find any one part that couldn't use some tweaking. The student has to be motivated and want to learn. Until they get to that point by coersion of parents, teacher, or self motivated, they are going to be difficult to teach. I have always had it easy and I was somewhat rebellious in high school. I didn't want to be there. I wanted to party and make money. I was a slacker in school, did very little homework and managed to pull B's and C's. I have some regret for not applying myself better in school. What a waste of time, the teachers, fellow students, taxpayers, not to mention my parents money in college. I started to see the light in my sophomore year (third year) and actually learned how to study. (I took Engineering Calculus three times before I finally gave up my career as a engineer.) I took extra classes and worked hard. Ended up with a double major in business school at USF. So Wilson, I was a case where the teacher had to teach to a lesser standard.

:

I saw your point on your first post but I dont see the connection on this post...My response about school districts teaching to the slowest kid was in response to Ferm's statement which is what I didnt agree with.

"Yet these kids are in the mainstream population, so EVERY kid in the district must learn at the slowest kids rate"

[RidgeRunner]

I held back my fellow students with my attitude toward learning. It wasn't my parents fault that I was uninterested in towing the line. Not exactly a special needs student but I tend to agree more with Ferm. If you can't leave the student behind and you have students that are behind in learning then you must bring them up to proficiency.