Very sad

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by jeffmo

If this post ruffles some feathers then so be it but that isn't my intent.I'd much rather leave this forum than to sit back and not state my opinion since i have been very involved in the issue here from the introduction of the bill to it's defeat and have witnessed those in my profession be villified for no other reason than politics,and it stinks.

Jeff...this is a discussion. No lies, no ill will, no right or wrong position. It is only by people talking and listening and observing that anyone learns anything. You are entitled to your opinion and you are just as entitled to to state it as much as anyone else. As long as you are not publically slandering anyone or lying you never have to worry about leaving the forums. Personally, I may not agree with everything you or other people state, but that doesn't mean you don't have the right and the obligation to state your opinions. Just as I'm sure that not everyone will agree with everything that I have an opinon about.

As to the subject at hand, if you look again at what I said, I said that it was a road that I really didn't want to go down but it was also the only reason that I could think of for the unions championing smaller class sizes. I'll stand by that comment until someone else can give me a reasonable explaination for wanting to reduce class sizes to 20-22 students per class, and also having one or two teachers aides in the same classroom as the teacher. I mean, wtf? 3 adults in one class to teach 20-22 kids?

BTW, don't, for a minute, think that I'm anti-union. Although I don't choose to be a part of one at this stage in my life, I used to work for the power and light company and was a member of the IBEW for 10+ years, and was a member of other unions before that. My own personal take on unions is that they can be a great source of protection for their members. Indeed, I think that at one time they were absolutely necessary in our culture. I also think that there are a lot of them that have abused their power over the years, and because of that they have hurt their standing in a lot of peoples eyes. Like everything else in this world, there are good and bad unions.

But this really isn't a discussion on the good or the bad of unions... it's a discussion about the children in our schools getting sub-standard educations and what we, as parents, think are possible solutions to that problem. Lets stick to that discussion in this thread and leave the union discussion to a different thread.

[RidgeRunner]

I am management and therefore unions are bad.. and that is another thread entirely.

As for the class size. You cannot use Japanese education at 60 plus per class as a benchmark as to what works in American children. The culture is very different. Americans are independent minded and the children act that way, discipline problems and lack of focus. Not so in Japan. The Japanese children are taught to tow the line and the family unit is a strong part of their heritage.

My point was that if the ratio of special needs children to regular needs children is somewhere near 1 in 20 or even 1 in 10. The burden of the teacher to handle 1 or 2 special needs children out of 20 is manageable compared to 3 or 4 children in a class of 45. To be clear there are 2 Teaching Assistants for the entire elementary school K thru 5 that float about the school and help the slower students on an ad hoc basis. Not sure how many mentors this year. It appears that any gain the teacher had with a smaller class size (ie. more 1 on 1 with students) seems to be lost due to mainstreaming the special needs children in with the rest of the class. IMHO.

Jeffmo, please comment all you like. It is just a blog amongst Snaggers.

[jeffmo]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

Jeff...this is a discussion. No lies, no ill will, no right or wrong position. It is only by people talking and listening and observing that anyone learns anything. You are entitled to your opinion and you are just as entitled to to state it as much as anyone else. As long as you are not publically slandering anyone or lying you never have to worry about leaving the forums. Personally, I may not agree with everything you or other people state, but that doesn't mean you don't have the right and the obligation to state your opinions. Just as I'm sure that not everyone will agree with everything that I have an opinon about.

As to the subject at hand, if you look again at what I said, I said that it was a road that I really didn't want to go down but it was also the only reason that I could think of for the unions championing smaller class sizes. I'll stand by that comment until someone else can give me a reasonable explaination for wanting to reduce class sizes to 20-22 students per class, and also having one or two teachers aides in the same classroom as the teacher. I mean, wtf? 3 adults in one class to teach 20-22 kids?

BTW, don't, for a minute, think that I'm anti-union. Although I don't choose to be a part of one at this stage in my life, I used to work for the power and light company and was a member of the IBEW for 10+ years, and was a member of other unions before that. My own personal take on unions is that they can be a great source of protection for their members. Indeed, I think that at one time they were absolutely necessary in our culture. I also think that there are a lot of them that have abused their power over the years, and because of that they have hurt their standing in a lot of peoples eyes. Like everything else in this world, there are good and bad unions.

But this really isn't a discussion on the good or the bad of unions... it's a discussion about the children in our schools getting sub-standard educations and what we, as parents, think are possible solutions to that problem. Lets stick to that discussion in this thread and leave the union discussion to a different thread.

well,all i can go on is what i read.if the issue is brought up like i highlighted below,then i think that it definately WAS meant to bring unions into the issue.the statement implies that there is an ulterior motive toclass sizes.i just disagree and my main reason for that isn't because I am a union firefighter,it's because as the parent of a special needs child my wife and I have worked very closely with every one of his teachers and the school during his education.i've seen the problems the teachers face every day and in my honest opinion,the lack of parental involvement is one of the lager problems in our schools today:

"As much as I hate to go in this direction, the only thing that I can think of is the teachers union. Think about it.. if you have 500 students, and each class size is 35, then you need 14 teachers (union members paying dues) to teach those students. But if each class size is 20 students then you need 25 teachers to teach those same 500 students. A net gain of 11 union paying members making the teachers union that much richer. I'm not saying this is the only reason that teachers unions want smaller class sizes, but it certainly smells a little fishy to me that the single biggest voice in wanting smaller classes is also the one that stands to gain the most money from it. Just one more thing to think about."


And btw,no hard feelings whatsoever.i have discussed these issue MANY times over the last year with alot of people.it is what it is and sad to say,it's politics.(worst part of my job!)

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by jeffmo

well,all i can go on is what i read.if the issue is brought up like i highlighted below,then i think that it definately WAS meant to bring unions into the issue.the statement implies that there is an ulterior motive toclass sizes.i just disagree and my main reason for that isn't because I am a union firefighter,it's because as the parent of a special needs child my wife and I have worked very closely with every one of his teachers and the school during his education.i've seen the problems the teachers face every day and in my honest opinion,the lack of parental involvement is one of the lager problems in our schools today:

"As much as I hate to go in this direction, the only thing that I can think of is the teachers union. Think about it.. if you have 500 students, and each class size is 35, then you need 14 teachers (union members paying dues) to teach those students. But if each class size is 20 students then you need 25 teachers to teach those same 500 students. A net gain of 11 union paying members making the teachers union that much richer. I'm not saying this is the only reason that teachers unions want smaller class sizes, but it certainly smells a little fishy to me that the single biggest voice in wanting smaller classes is also the one that stands to gain the most money from it. Just one more thing to think about."


And btw,no hard feelings whatsoever.i have discussed these issue MANY times over the last year with alot of people.it is what it is and sad to say,it's politics.(worst part of my job!)

You should have highlighted the following words also

I'm not saying this is the only reason that teachers unions want smaller class sizes

I'll listen to any other reasonable reason that is put out on the table, but lacking one so far, I cannot help but think that what I said is pretty close to the truth. Also, as perviously discussed, I was (he's out of school now) the parent of a special needs child also, and, like you, I worked very closely with all of my sons teachers. This was not a comment about the teachers. By and large they were a group of very dedicated people. You're correct however, it was a comment about their union and was definetly meant to bring them into the discussion as one of a number of different reasons that are all contributing to the decline of our childrens education. Unions + politics = bad for our children. One only has to look at "no child left behind" to see that glaring truth. The teachers unions in Washington lobbied for that law harder than any other group. But there is a huge difference between a teacher and the union that rules him/her.

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

As for the class size. You cannot use Japanese education at 60 plus per class as a benchmark as to what works in American children. The culture is very different. Americans are independent minded and the children act that way, discipline problems and lack of focus. Not so in Japan. The Japanese children are taught to tow the line and the family unit is a strong part of their heritage.

Of course I can use it as a benchmark. The whole rest of the world does. That was my point exactly. Class size has NOTHING to do with how well an education a child does or does not receive. It has everything to do with, as you just said, "children are taught to toe the line and the family unit is a strong part of their heritage." Which brings us right back to one of the main reasons our children are not getting a good education... Namely, that we, as parents, and as citizens, are not doing our job of working as hard as we can to insure that our children learn in school. That includes community action, political action and parent-teacher interaction. As Jeffmo said, "parental involvement"

[jeffmo]

i think that any decline in a childs education is more directly linked to parent involvement than any other reason.
there have been programs implemented though that haven't worked.a good example is how in our state grade schoolers were taught how to spell in a different format than i was.they were taught to spell a word out phoenetically instead of the old way and alot of kids grades suffered because of it.when my daughter reached 7th grade she was kept off of the honor roll because of her spelling grade.ALOT of other kids had the same problem,parents recognized it and approached the school board to have it changed.
it was a flawed system and should have never been implemented over a system that had worked for generations.sometimes new and improved isn't.
as far as a union ruling it's members,i can't speak for a teachers union but the IAFF is made up of people who were/are firefighters and they work for their members and lobby for issues such as manning,equipment and other safety issues.
but now i will move away from this discussion because i would much rather discuss boating,fishing and anything other than work! :)

[lumberslinger178]

It would take me all day to type whats I'd like to say as I only use two fingers...lol

But all in all I have 3 kids all students of our public school system .. and I couldn't be more proud of them and what they have accomplished in the way of education ... they're up standing citizens smart polite and caring...
Ones an Occupational therapist ones going to school to be a physical therapist and the other is one hell of a Carpenter and a Gentleman......And my best friend.

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by lumberslinger178

It would take me all day to type whats I'd like to say as I only use two fingers...lol

But all in all I have 3 kids all students of our public school system .. and I couldn't be more proud of them and what they have accomplished in the way of education ... they're up standing citizens smart polite and caring...
Ones an Occupational therapist ones going to school to be a physical therapist and the other is one hell of a Carpenter and a Gentleman......And my best friend.

And it's all because they have a mom and dad that cared for them, coached them and took the time to work with them when they needed help in their schooling. Well done Lumber

[RidgeRunner]

I wrote- "You cannot use Japanese education at 60 plus per class as a benchmark as to what works in American children."

Destroyer said "Sure I can the rest of the world does"

I can assure you that the Japanese education system is neither a model nor consideration to anyone in the Polk County School system. Maybe the rest of the world uses it as a shining example of how it "Could be done" so a benchmark it is, but then reality sets in. It wouldn't work in the typical American classroom and doesn't work in any other society.
We are miles apart in parental obligation. They start the children young and stay on top of them. The entire family focus there is to educate their children. Non-conforming students live in shame in their society and are considered a disgrace. Here, it is acceptable and we go out of the way to study the WHY? We come up with all sorts of labels and excuses to justify the behavior and categorize. Some excuses are legitimate to be sure, medical conditions and the like, but behavioral issues should not be tolerated to the extent they are.