No more middle class???
 

so i read an article in todays post about the decline of the middle class. i couldnt find it on their website and even if i did it was pretty long.
it basically talked about how the american dream used to be what we consider middle class and that with the ressesion and all, this may be the new normal.
talked about how the only projected job growth would be professionals and how the middle class is disappearing. they say soon there will be rich people and poor people. this kind of hit home as when growing up my mom only went back to work when we were old enough to come home from school and take care of ourselves. until then my pop always provided for us. when i got married 14 years ago, we were doing kind of alright but as my mortgage and taxes creep up constantly its getting harder and harder to make ends meet, which is kind of amazing because i make what sounds like a decent living. my wife only works part time but she's there when the kids are so i couldnt ask for more from her.
i guess its true. the middle class is going the way of the bustle.
rich or poor? where will you fall?

I unfortunately fall in the REALLY poor category. Unfortunately this is how our current government wants us, all poor and dependant upon them. These are all things that have been set in motion for decades now, and will take alot of work to hopefully undo. And despite what many think, the democratic party is the #1 offender trying to make it this way. They want everybody dependant on the government, and then the super elite class on the other end.

I have a book called the Confederate Nation, its a real long boring text book explaining the ideals and goals of the Southern Democratic party and their goals of returning the US to a caste system of government preceding and thru the civil war. As you read thru the text, just replace the dates with current dates and it all fits in with the current goals of the Democratic party(excepting the issue of slavery). The corner stone of this type of government is the elimination of the middle class, where you have the powers that be and governors(land owners) and the rest that work for them. I allways found it ironic that the demcratic party stood for a non democratic government

If you want the whole truth and nothing but the truth watch Glenn Beck, tevo it or record it 5pm on Fox. He just did a special on Soros and how Obama has him on speed dial, Soros and his minions have a multi point plan to deflate our dollar and cause this country to go into turmoil with one group fighting with another, class warfare, all set up to force the United States into the new world order.
We are the Progressives only real hindrance and we have been in their sights for decades now.
These are facts, not theory, in their own words on tape telling us what they are doing.
And any of you fellows who are in the AFL-CIO and this Trumka guy is who you are keeping in office you need to ask yourself just one question, are you a communist? Because he is! And he makes no bones about it, so much so that the Communist Party U.S has just released a info packet about how they and this union with Trumka worked in five key cities to prevent the Republicans from winning the Senate.
This is despicable, our workers working with Progressives in the government to destroy America as we know it and not even hiding it.
You know we are in trouble when American Union Members support with their efforts and their money this kind of treason.

Yep, soros's wet dream is no more middle class. Just a bunch of poor people dependant upon the government, and his buddies in the elite pulling the puppet strings.

If you guys are blaming all our problems on the current administration, you haven't been paying attention to what ALL the politicians have been doing to us over the last MANY years...demonize him if you want, but HE'S only a symptom...the disease runs MUCH deeper and flows over both sides of the aisle...

It shouldn't be about Dems vs Reps...or the Right vs the Left...the debate and the reaction should be about the citizenry of this country against the politicians who are screwing it up for all of us as fast as they can go...:bat:

There is truth to what you say Oz, the enemy of our Republic has only one label, it is called Progressives.
The only caveat I would add to your pronouncement is this.
The Democrat Party has been almost completely co-opted by the progressive fringe, not my words, the words of Democrats running for re-election this year. The few that got re-elected did so by promising to fight against this agenda, some even literally shooting rifles at the ObamaCare Bill hung on a target.
None of the Republicans are being supported by Move On Dot Org,-The Tides Foundation-The AFL-CIO- SEIU- the Communist Party USA-Socialist Party USA-Acorn and dozens of other entities in the media which are bought and paid for by George Soros.
None of the Republicans meet with the Shadow Government Project (literally what they are called) funded by Soros, to organize the down fall of the Republic( their stated objective) and to force civil unrest so that the U.S Gov has no choice but to make sweeping changes in violation of the Constitution seizing power.
No my friend, though some like Lyndsey and Olympia are Progressives that pretend to be moderates, even they do not attend these movements meetings and make speeches. it is the Obamination, Pelosi, Reed and all the other Democrat politicians and leaders that are there enmasse.
With their hands out for money and support. Hillary was one of Soro's darlings that helped him set up Move on Dot Org, and several of his 501C3's, she speaks at all these Soros organization meetings all the time, she is on tape doing it repeatedly, so are a whole bunch of Democrat Pols.
if any of you guys have been watching Beck you will see them, in their own words, on tape, repeatedly saying these things, and our so called Fourth Estate, The Press is intentionally ignoring it because they also have the same agenda.
That is why Beck is vilified in the media, why Fox News is literally come under attack from the Whitehouse, the freaking Whitehouse attacking and organizing opposition against a news agency. Have you ever even heard of such a thing in America. You do now, because of the enemy at our gates,
they are called Progressive's, Socialist's, Fabian Progressive's in England and here, Communists, Left Wingers, and several other names, including much to my sorrow and many of my friends in the know sorrow, Democrats.
Right now in the U.S, the Demo/Socialist Party controls the large population centers, especially where there are mass Union membership and large media outlets which are controlled . These population centers have the majority ( yes now officially the majority ) of people who pay Zero 0 income tax and take more from the federal Govt. (us) than they pay in. This is by calculated design, and they are the ones who are voting themselves more social payments etc. by re-electing these Democrats into office. Also in major urban areas they are calculating the entree of 20-30 million illegals as U.S citizens which of course will vote to give themselves more sh!t, for free. And of course will vote for those politicians who will make sure they get it, trading freedom for freebies means nothing to these people who do not have any stake in the health of our Republic.
No my friend they can be called anything nowadays, but they are Socialist/Progressives and they are completely in control of the once great Democratic Party.

What about the newly elected Republican Representative who railed against health care during his campaign...caught on camera beetchin' about the fact that HIS GOV'T insurance coverage doesn't start for a month...wanna talk about pretenders?...

You say the enemy of our republic are the Progressives..I say it's apathy on the part of those who are caught up in the POLITICAL debate, when it's a GOVERNMENT ISSUE...the point is being MISSED and that's just the way THEY want it...as long as we are down here in the trenches fighting amongst ourselves about left vs right, THEY WIN!!...WE LOSE!!...

No one here being apathetic, no one in this election was apathetic, did you see ALL the results, I ask that because a lot of it went un reported by the drive by media.
The largest single victory in history of State Representatives, 486 state house and senate seats changed hands to republican, including hundreds that were in Democratic hands for over three decades.
Governors in states controlled by democrats for decades now Republican.
In 2006 democrat take over of the house with a 36 seat change was called a landslide, a monumental change on the will of the people.
In 2010 the House changed hands with a 64 seat change with I believe a few still pending.
The Tea Party, vilified by the Democrats, mocked, threatened and lambasted by the major media, was the single biggest influence in all of this across the country. They are regular folks like you and me, fed up with the Progressives and what they are doing to our country, regardless of party affiliation took to the streets peacefully, organized, and voted. In the grand tradition of American Citizens standing up for our nation.
No Sir, no apathy here.
No apathy when a TV talk show host can organize the third largest gathering in history on our nation's mall without a political agenda, or support for a political party, no, just an idea of Restoring America and our belief in One Nation Under God.
No, no apathy among all the people I spoke with over the past few months, they are angry, they are scared, and they are tired of what is happening to our nation.
They are going to hold these Republicans and Demo/socialist's feet to the fire.
And maybe some who wish to save it, might do something about organizing American Democrats in to taking back their party, cause right now they are being run by those who would destroy our way of life, destroy the Constitution, destroy the Republic.
And the real biatch of it is the masks have come off and they are all over the place talking about how they are going to do it. On video, in print, in their own words.

I had this conversation with someone about 6 months ago. I used to own a thriving Exotic Car Customizing business that did really well for me and my family. I even had a TV show on ESPN! Money wasn't an issue. I have since lost the company, my house, my cars and everything I had worked hard to build up. This was 2 years ago and I am back on my feet now working a job (I haven't worked for someone is 8 years!) making not much more than I did when I was in College. However, thankful to be working!! I am a former teacher and former Air Traffic Controller with multiple degrees and a vast background. I totally believe that, especially here on LI, there will be the lower class barely making it and the upper class thriving off the lower class. It's a rather in depth discussion/debate but being a victim of this I feel first hand where we are headed. This is the reason I am selling my 2 larger 27' and 29' cabin cruisers and getting a smaller trailerable boat that I can afford and manage myself without paying haulers and storage fees. God Bless America!!! ...............:cen:

Willy, here is my problem with Glen Beck...I've been watching his show lately and this is where I disagree. If someone has any desire to implement or even discuss anything that is traditionally labeled "progressive" he paints a broad brush and calls them "communists or socialists" and all the bad parts of those movements that came along with them in our world history. ( not to mention the dramatic way he does it like we should all be so appalled)

Let me ask you this and be honest...if some how magically every person in this country, or world for that matter could be taken care of medically with quaility care, and it was somehow paid for equitably wouldnt that be just the best thing ever? Or if we had a world economy without politics involved where now instead of having 300 million US customers I could sell my widgets to I had 6 billion people without having to worry about trade laws and embargos and taxes and all the other bull**** that our world politics brings with it.

Call me a progressive or communist or whatever you want but in THEORY universal healthcare and a world economy would be a GOOD thing but with the "current world order" it will never happen. You have to admit our current worlds political system is rediculous. But if you imagine changing it you just said basically that you want a "new world order" and Glenn Beck automatically says that means we are not at the top of this order and the world will come to an end.

The problem is with our current political 2 party system is someone cant even attempt to dream about that kind of thing without being called a "Socialist or Communist" by the Republican party and the whole machine comes to a grinding to a halt.

We all need to pray to whatever God you believe in for guidance and for salvation. Without his help, I fear that our Country will be lost to our children and their children for centurys to come.

I believe life is what you make of it. If at any point we get fed up with this country, guess what???

There are over 190 countries in the world to choose from!
:hide:

Sure that would be easy if you are a loner and have no family to leave behind. Besides, why run? Why don't we try and fix what we broke and get back to the USA we all feel so proud of????

I think you missed my point Sea, I was trying to make the point that each of us are in full control of our own destiny, with a little humor thrown in (which was the reason for the c o c k-eyed, push-up, tongue waggin' smiley at the end).
:beer:

I've dreamt about it several times... it's called a nightmare. I have no desire to have someone take the fruits of my labor and give it to someone else that isn't doing a damn thing except holding out their hand. I'm not toaking about the injured or people that are mentally challanged.. I'm talking about perfectly healthy people that are playing the system. Why should they work when they can get everything for free?


Points well taken. But what you have up there is exactly the Glen Beckian thought that I am talking about. Your taking a potentially workable idea and throwing it out without discussion because you dont want to see lazy bastards get something they dont deserve.

And I could not agree with you more about that and without a shadow of a doubt those people exist and are benefiting from alot of Democratic polices that are in place now. I'll be the first one to tell you that 99 weeks of unemployment is too much. We occasionally lay guys off that have worked for us (although never for lack of work, just because they suck or are a pain in the ***) and its comical how just about when unemployment is running out you hear they are starting to beat the bushes looking for work......they'd have been looking alot sooner if they new that next check wasnt coming.

So because we have a percentage of the population that are dead beats working the system we are going to dismiss health care reform that could possibly help many people. I dont think the problem is the idea its the execution....2000 pages long and that jack *** pelosi saying you'll have to vote for it to find out whats in it.

I personally know alot of working class people that strictly CAN NOT AFFORD DECENT HEALTH CARE FOR THEIR FAMILY. And its just plain wrong....but we are going to ignore all those problems because we dont want some scumbag gettin a free ride....how about we do something about it and then find out how to get the scumbags off our dime....


When my son broke his leg the total billed to our insurance company was $32,000 for a broken leg. Fortunately for my family our health benefits are outstanding (through the evil teachers union) and did not cost me more than about $50 out of pocket for some co pays.....the insurance company paid about $22,500 which the providers accepted as full payment. Now if I didnt have insurance how much would I have owed, 22,500 or $32,000? Who the hell knows....Ask any insurance actuary how to get insurance rates down and they will tell you to get a bigger pool of customers. Have one insurance company instead of the amount we have now and rates will drop.

Another big part in the healthcare reform is mandatory digitizing of patient records....With my moms current illness a myriad of doctors came in ordering test upon test....fortunately my sister being an RN and there every day with her was able to point out on about a half dozen occasions that that particular test was just ordered by the last doctor and completed. A complete waste of money......

All these things need to be fixed but there are those that wont even address the damn bill because they think its a slippery slope to nationalized medicine by the "obamination"....

It's rediculous.....yes this country is in trouble because of all the labeling bull**** and stereotyping generalizations that politics has become....and I would rather be on the side wanting to change it than the side that just wants it be the way it used to be. Things will probably never be the way it used to be...This is not the 1930's isolationism or the 1950's post world war with a vast open country and vast amounts of natural resources....its not the era of the tech boom where businesses flourished putting a pc on every desk and a cell phone in every hand and a dot com on every screen....times are changing and we need to as well.

I will be the first to admit I am naive but I would like to call it optimism. I refuse to admit there is an evil empire in the white house right now that wants to chain me like a dog to work for him.....I'm just not doing it.

Got yah! :beer:

As long as LOBBYISTS are allowed to run around handing out money to our greedy politicians, none of this entire discussion or any discussion about politics is worth having...in case you haven't noticed, this has become a government FOR the Special Intersts BY the Lobbyists...I'm done talkin about politics...waste of time...how about a good thread about fornicating bugs or somethin'!!...:clap:

Rant
 

Nicely put Destroyer and Willy. There are only two distinct classes. The working class, comprised of anyone with a job, retired or those who by no fault of their own are without a job but looking, and the outta class who have found a way to work the system to their advantage. The redistrubution of wealth pisses me off and only serves to create generation after generation of the same outta class people sucking up my tax dollars. If you find yourself in this category without any skills or education, why would you give up the gravy train government handouts to climb aboard the working class bandwagon. For starters, you are already getting a better deal taking what the government is handing out than you would working a minimum wage job. If you don't think you are getting enough government help you can always have another child or three.(The system rewards you for that) Your employer may require a drug test, as mine does, so you would likely need to quit drinking and doing drugs to get hired in the first place, because you will be required to take responsibility for your actions and show up on time.(Basically becoming a contributing member of the Republic) Then after 10 years working dead end jobs and getting your EIC every year (That would be the refund of all that you paid in for the year in Income Taxes plus a bit of what I paid in for the year) you will aspire to earn enough money so that you can turn around and give roughly 10% (soon to be 15%) of your hard working money to the government (IRS) so they can dole it out to all those who are milking the system and have no intention of working (See Obama's Illegal Immigrant Kenyan Auntie Living in Massachussetts Government Housing and collecting a Social Security Check) To the libs in Mass, WTF? (Off track? Yes, Because politics in Mass are way the he// of track.)

The working class has some really rich guys, not all are poor like me. Some of those really rich guys were directly responsible for running GM and Chrysler into Bankruptcy. Yet others start corporations and hire workers to make things or offer services. I am in the same class. I choose to collaborate with the businessman that pays my wage. If I am lucky and work hard I too may become rich by moving up the ladder or starting my own business. That is why I vote Republican. "Republicans are for the rich" is a misguided concept. I hear it all the time from the liberal media. A poor man voting for a Democrat is the right thing to do because the Democrats will protect the working class. Horse Hockey! Democrats will keep the Entitlements coming and in doing so foster the lazy folks lifestyle. Republicans know how to get things done and because they like money they will use the money they have to create more by investing in business, investing in the future. What future is there with entitlements? By the way nearly all of our Congress are lawyers and most are millionaires Democrats and Republicans alike. The Dems talk big about taxing the rich at a much higher rate, it would directly affect their net worth so I ain't buying it. Lip service at best.

Obviously, nothing changes overnight. But my point is that handouts DO CREATE LAZY INDIVIDUALS. For the outta class to go to work at this point is inconceivable. We need jobs. We need to prop up the value of the dollar so that it will have more staying power and we need to drop crude off the CME. Nothing creates inflation like $100 +/barrel crude. Everything we consume (unless you live on a farm) gets to the final destination with fuel. And unless you are Ahmish, your farm uses tractors that run on fuel. Prohibit the shorting of the markets. Throw a few of the high profile, white collar types in jail for their counterproductive greed. Is Martha Stewart the only one that got caught with her hand in the cookie jar? Let's have an accounting of where every dollar really goes. Gut the government spending on foreign aid, consider military spending cuts. The pukeface liberal godless hippie Bill Maher claims we spend more on military spending than the next twelve countries combined. Is that really necessary? Where does all that money go? I mean are we still procuring hammers at $25/copy, $50 toilet seats? Take it all the way to the State and local government agencies. Every division of government has a budget, they spend every dime of their budget so they can get the same dollar amount or more when next years budget is passed. They never have to show a profit or justify their expenditures and that is why the government run programs will never be efficient. Hold them all accountable, right down to their pay which is outpacing the private sector.

To RWilson, great pics in your other thread BTW. Nice family you have there and above all else on this site, nice V. I kind of know what you are saying and I agree that people in politics are responsible from both sides of the isle but the European Democracy will cause our taxes to go up and with all the waste, I say NO WAY. Growing the government is not the answer. None of our current systems are efficient why would you assume new systems would be? I am not picking a fight, I respect your opinion.
We are all in the same boat, Pun Intended.

I am taxed at the highest level I am comfortable with now. Especially if you consider inflation / loss of retirement / 4 year wage freeze etc. If the government can't figure a way to make ends meet and leave me the he// alone I can assure you they will only get less in the future. I have been told by our great govt. to tighten the belt, so ordered. I have been told that retirement investments will come back (three times in my life now) BS! I am not panicked, I am trenched in with no trust in our financial system or hope for any change. I see another huge correction in the stock market soon. They called it wrong, the recession ain't over folks. The economy barely has a pulse.

In the words of Nancy Pelosi, "We aren't going to do anything until November when we have a new President." Nov- 2007 At the time I thought that odd because people were already hurting and we were already over a year into the recession, I mean what a time for party politics. In hindsight that was a step in the right direction in light of the taxpayer money that was wasted ramming Obamacare (Unconstitutional) down our throats and the fat cat bailouts that Bush started at the end of his presidency which Obama carried on. Pelosi should be hung as a traitor. The behind closed doors deals, introducing bills at 2:00 a.m., "We need to pass the bill so that everyone can see what's in it." Really Nancy, I may not be the only one that has tried to contact her on this site. Unless you are in her district, GOOD LUCK. Her constituents are fruits and nuts, last I knew HIV was still rampant in her district. HIV Positive = Not likely to obtain medical insurance, Obamacare fixes that. Coincidence?

Let's get back to some good old fashioned Parliamentary Procedure and let us have some Transparency that we were promised. Cut the pork barrel spending, amend the tax laws and close the loop holes. Make it harder to stay on welfare indefinitely.

If Obamacare IS NOT repealed or found Unconstitutional we will need to change a very old saying, "Nothing is certain in life except Death, Taxes and Obamacare."

Less National Lampoon and More Clear and Present Danger. That's all I got... Sorry if it offends, I am outta here and promise not to argue. Refute if you can rebut if you must...

RW I do agree there is a lot of labeling going around. Some labeling is accurate and some misleading. I have never been one in my life to lump people into groups, or play group and identity politics.
In truth, there is a political party that has been doing that with Americans for decades and I have watched it year after year and so have you. What has been said and done with the black population in this country is a classic example. Never in history has so much been done for a minority that has been done here. Government figures indicate over six trillion dollars in the past six decades. Yet though many have taken advantage of all the money, programs, education, health care and job preferences etc. the FBI Uniform Crime Report indicates every year that over 70 % of the violent crime in our nation is committed by 5% of our population, black males between the ages of 16-26.
Illegitimate child birth is rising with over 50% of black children born out of wedlock with no father around. Drop out rates in schools among blacks is over 60% in all our urban areas. Food stamps, welfare social security medicare all rising every year.
They are a dependent society, and their so called leaders are millionaires seeking power and money keeping them there as are the Democratic Party who are using them for their own political gain.
The same is done separating Americans in dozens of other ways, Christians, ***s, blacks, whites, Hispanics, Conservative, moderate, etc.
This is the ability in which the democratic party has really shined, and gained power doing it.
In reality all of these groups have more in common than most realize.
In a nutshell what Beck does is provide you facts, facts a bought and agenda based press will not let you see. Sometimes I find his personality a little odd, but I know this, he loves America, all of America regardless of your skin color, religion or ethnic background. And he, like myself will not allow our nation to fail in our generation. He like myself strongly believe that while government and the belief in God have to remain separate they are intertwined and that our Nation was founded on the Judeo Christian principles and that to deny or trivialize that is foolish, stupid, and a lie.
As far as having universal health care, well I do like the idea, I like many of the Utopian ideals I have seen in my life, like universal peace, universal sharing of all the worlds resources, universal hot chics for all the retired Police Detectives, etc. etc.
One problem, they do not work, we do not have the money for it, we are in such financial debt right now that our nation may not survive.
Read that again, we may not survive.
In every nation where it is in place it is a utter, catastrophic failure. It causes health care quality to decline tremendously, causes humongous debt, and leads inevitably to rationing of care to the elderly and the young.
In a few countries like Sweden it is sort of working by huge taxes on the working population, and the people are given the option to go and buy supplementary health care to cover their illnesses because the national plan cannot afford it.
Do you see world leaders flying to Sweden for serious medical care? I don't think so, they come here because it is the best. That will change dramatically and very quickly under Obamacare. As it has in England, France, Canada and every other industrialized nation that has implemented various versions of it.
I got an idea though, and I think Americans working together can make what we have even better.
What we do is follow our Constitution, restrict the Federal Government to 1/3 its current size, we follow free market principles and use the power of the free market to force down costs, we establish health care groups that buy in mass and we take some of the money that the federal government has been stealing from its citizens and use it as buying leverage for those who have a legitimate need for help.
We restrict social security to what it was originally supposed to be, to help the elderly that have not got the ability to take care of themselves and not put a gigantic multi generational dependent society face first into the trough.
You see this country was founded on principles that we can govern ourselves, we do not need a giant centralized government to take care of us. In fact history has showed repeatedly that every single nation with such a powerful government became corrupt, immoral and eventually brutal to its citizens. And it has failed.
The American Experiment was for free men to lead themselves and to act responsibly to their countrymen and their families, respect the beliefs of others and to keep what they earn. To live in a free market society.
Every single problem we have in this nation today can be traced back to the divergence we have allowed our Federal Government to commit.

Dammit Reel, I nearly forgot those pesky special interest groups. We have a few lobbying for our cause right now in the Lumber Business. You are correct. They have a lot of a$$ in Washington. BTW- Social Security and Medicare are not the same entitlement programs I was bashing. Those receiving those benefits had to pay their dues. It is the freeloaders that get under my skin. Wilson was typing as I was. No doubt we need REFORM. REFORM the whole damn thing. No argument here.

I was born poor and will die poor! I go up and down over the years but I always end up on the sh!t end of the stick!!
I have been on the up swing the last 2 years but I just started down hill again :nut: slow but sure!
But like blue says its what you make of it!

In my earlier posts I was not blaming obama solely, as there is MORE than enough blame to go around on BOTH sides of the fence. My point is though that with the o at the wheel of the bus, he has dropped it into double overdrive, floored it, and is gunning down everything that remains of the US, our values, and the constitution. I digress though as he is but a cog in the vehicle that is doing everything it can to collapse us.

Since healthcare was brought up, let me put some info out there for ya'll to ponder. 9 1/2 years ago I was in a SERIOUS car accident where the doctors told me at the hospital to say goodbye to my family when I was admitted as it would be my last chance to. Needless to say I survived, but am left in rough shape afterwards. My medical bills passed $100K in my first weekend there(admitted on a Friday night at 11:50PM), and after my first week had passed over $250K with the ICU bill. All and all my bills surpassed a million dollars after the year of surgeries, therapy, and recovery. I had full coverage auto ins(which in a no fault state isn't much really), and luckily I had just signed up for a cheap HMO at work through AETNA. IIRC I paid out about $5K out of my pocket in deductables and non covered items, and the insurance companies paid out about $60K to cover over a MILLION dollars in bills. There was still about $100K left that were put into liens in case I ever got a settlement(aint that great, the bill was paid but if I got money down the road magicall ythey were entitled to more money), which I believe my attorney settled for about $10K during litigation.

Now if seeing over a MILLION dollars in bills get settled for less than $100K doesn't get you riled up, then I don't know what will. What about those people that don't have insurance? They are stuck with that HUGE bill that will follow them forever. But those with insurance can get it all for pennies on the dollar. So do I think we need healthcare reform, HE!! YES! Do we need obamacare, FU$K NO! Even as bad a shape as I am in, even I don't want obamacare, OR any of his entitlement programs. I know I could be getting over a grand every month, and not have to do anything but sit on the couch and watch TV, but instead I go out and work through the pain, and make a few dollars here and there to get the bills paid until I can find a job that will actually accept an application from me without laughing when they hear about my injuries and restrictions.

This country is in bad shape when somebody like me who is actually hurt and probably should be on the government plan isn't(heck, I'm even part indian and have been told I'm a complete idiot because I'm not signed up to get money for that too). The government programs will do nothing but lead to millions more people everday deciding why work when I can get it for nothing. I say reform healthcare and make it affordable to have medical care. Why should an anesthesiologist's union(not even the dr, but his union) get $2300 everytime he puts somebody under anesthesia? Why should a pack of guaze in an O.R. cost you $800 just because it was brought in during surgery? It all goes back to overspending and fraud at the government level, as it is spilling over into other areas. And if you think nationalizing it, and giving the keys to the government to run will help anything. Then I'm afraid you are mistaken.

I am all for reform, but not limited to any category. I feel reform needs to be done over MANY areas. And it needs to start with AMERICA going back to AMERICAN values, morals, principles, and the CONSTISTUTION! Don't just point the finger at one side when there are some on BOTH sides who are guilty, AND some on both sides who are good. The big problems we face today can be traced back to DC, and the monster we have allowed it to become. The way to fix these problems though lies in the people, and MUST begin with the people.

Ferm, well said my friend. And I respect the h@ll out of what you have done.
I believe very strongly that most of our biggest problems have been caused or aggravated by Washington.
As a follow up to what I said earlier, free market principles will do a lot for the costs of health care, but because of certain things the government has in the way prevent it from happening and one in particular has the costs of health care and many other things criminally thru the roof.
It is reform of our civil litigation laws, some politicians have tried to do it and have been lambasted by the democrats and the lame stream media. Some states have changed and restricted their laws and have seen a tremendous drop in litigation and costs but do to the federal laws have not been able to cut it as dramatically as it needs to be.
For doctors and medical practitioners, hospitals it is as much as 50% of their cost of doing buisness, both for insurance and for lawyer based edicts forced upon them by a civil court.
But just about every single one of these sh!theads that gets elected is a lawyer, and the insurance companies are big contributors to these lawyers so getting anything done has been buried by them.
The people know, the govt. knows, the lawyers all know, but when Congressman Ryan (rep) tried to bring it up as part of an alternative plan for health care reform the republicans were summarily dismissed by the democrats.
You see, the lawyer lobby, and the insurance lobby along with the unions are the some of the biggest contributors to the demo/socialist party.
Can you imagine what Tort Reform would do in this country to reduce costs on health care industry alone.
Forget about the costs on all of our industry, businesses of every kind.
Removing barriers from buyers being able to buy insurance from across state lines, allowing not for profit groups to set up group plans and be able to buy insurance and medicine from anywhere.
Low cost plans could be put together, catastrophic illness plans can be set up for those with existing illnesses to help all families with the major insurers, the government and the medical profession all contributing to make it happen for our people with some type of general small tax on everyone.
And by everyone I mean everyone. No more of this crap where now 50% of the people in this nation recieve more in benefits/entitlements from the federal government than they have paid in, where 50% of our population pays ZERO income tax.
Thats right, 50% of our population pays ZERO, income tax.
We all need to stand up and correct this path we are on and come up with free market, free people solutions to this and get this 800 lb vicious gorilla off our backs before it wakes up and realizes it can do whatever it feels like.

Damnit Willy... you just said what I was about to say in your last post. Well said my friend.

Websters says that naive is: Naive is a French loanword (adjective, form of naïf) indicating having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication. I don't know about the sophistication, because I consider myself very sophisticated. (After all, I drive a fancy, dancy Land Rover.) But I, like everyone else here, is naive in one thing or another. Hell, I'm 66 years old and I still don't understand women, so I'm naive in that subject. Point being that no one should take any offense if I say I think they are naive about a particular subject. It's not a slur or an insult, nor should it be looked at that way.

Lets talk for a second about RW's comment(s). Basically, he said that in a perfect society Universal Health Care is a good idea. And I find, after thinking it through, that he's correct and I'm the one that was naive. There's nothing wrong with wanting everyone in the world having equal, quality health care. Truthfully, it's the Christian thing to desire. And, while I'm not sure that it would take a world government to administer something like that, it's an idea that could be explored. So in that respect, and in that respect only, yes, it's a good idea.

The problem is, of course, there is no perfect society. Nor, for that matter, will there ever be one. As long as there is just one person somewhere in the world that is the least bit greedy, just the least bit power hungry, the idea is doomed to failure.

Tort reform is needed. There are people that will say that it's just a small percentage of the costs, but they are wrong. Fear of lawsuits drives everything in our nation now. Just look on the TV... you see ads by lawyers telling you to sue over second hand smoke, and all medications you took in your lifetime, asbestos related illness, accidents, toothpaste, (yes toothpaste) etc etc etc. You hear quick little blurbs on the radio telling you the legal things about car ads, etc. My point is the costs of defending yourself against lawsuits from greedy...yes, I said GREEDY lawyers that make 1/3 to 1/2 of whatever they win in a lawsuit are astronomical. Not only hospitals, but everyone and every company related to health care is burdened by this unnessary expense. So tort reform is first on the list of reforms.
Next, lets look at reforms about buying insurance across state lines. Right now you or your employer can only buy health insurance from companies allowed to operate in your state. So, even though you might be able to buy less costly insurance from a different company in another state you're prohibited from doing so by law. Change the laws... allow free market competition and see how fast the prices drop.
I can go on and on.. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are dozens of areas where real, effective cost savings can be made without sacraficing any quality of health care. We, as a group and as a nation, need to start demanding of our elected reps that they actually do something instead of just giving us lip service while they continue to take huge sums of money from drug, lawyer and insurance lobbys. If they don't, they don't get my vote. Nor should they get yours. :head:

Great dialogue guys...good information and opinions from all of you especially Willy , Destoyer and Ridgerunner....

Thanks for the compliments on the family and the boat Ridge.....you're right thats whats most important around here anyway!..

And Paul....dont think for a second you insulted me with the naive comment....you can certainly call me your friend as I do you and all the rest of you snaggers (as Willy likes to call ya!)....:beer: