Running with Ethanol fuel

[Carl]

Just reading an article about the detriments of ethanol fuel with marine engines. Does anyone have any experience with this yet.



Ethanol fuel may leave boats dead in
the water

By J. STAAS HAUGHT Staff Writer, (609) 272-7253
(Published: May 2, 2006)

If rising gasoline prices aren't enough to keep areaboaters out of the
water this summer, the gas itself might do the trick.
Boat owners and marina operators say they're concerned that ethanol-blended fuel, now being sold at all filling stations across thestate, could damage their engines and fuel systems, putting them in dry dock for the season.
Bud Dickinson, of Mays Landing, is worried about damaginghis three boats.
Ethanol stirs up the junk in your tanks, and if it gets brought into the injectors, it's going to be a real problem,he said. Mostof the manuals tell you really to take a lot of precaution with ethanolso you don't ruin your engine.
That's because ethanol acts as a detergent, stirring up sediment left in the tanks. If filtering systems fail or get too clogged,the residue could find its way to the engine.
If your filter works, once that first tank is done, you'llprobably be OK, or you might have to change your filters severaltimes, but who wants to ruin a $14,000 engine to test that? Dickinson said
From May through October, all gas sold in New Jersey has to betreated with a pollution-reducing additive. Traditionally, thathas been MTBE, but recent studies raised concern about its effects ongroundwater, so the state ordered a switch to E10 gas, so-called because it is 10 percent ethanol.
Most drivers won't notice any difference running thecleaner-burning E10 in their cars or trucks, but boats are designeddifferently and the fuel can be a problem in marine applications. Most newer carengines were designed with E10 in mind, while most boat engines are older andwere designed to run on other fuels. Wawa posted notices on its fuel pumpslast weekend warning customers that some boats will need preventivemaintenance to run on E10.
David Brown, owner of Thompson Marine in Egg Harbor Township, said most boat owners are expecting problems
I don't think anybody really knows anything yet, andthat's kind of the issue. We're not sure what to expect. We had a problemlong ago, in the late 70s and early 80s when they tried ethanol before,with fuel lines and rubber hoses breaking down, so there' some concern wecould see the same thing this time, Brown said. There's also an issuewith the ethanol mixing with water and fouling up the engine.
Traditional gas, and even MTBE-treated fuel, doesn't mix with water, so any water in a boat's fuel tank can be pumped out beforeit creates a problem. Ethanol, however, is water-soluble, so it mixes with water and carries it into the engine.
With the old fuel, if you get some water in there, you can pump out from the bottom and still save the tank (of gas). But with ethanol, the boat just won't run and you waste a whole tank of gas,said JackMadore, owner of Graef Boat Yard in Somers Point
But, Graef said, ethanol poses another concern forboaters. The big issue for some of the high-end boats is theirtanks. Ethanol eats away at fiberglass tanks, he said.
That has Scott Raab really worried. I'm not going to put it in the water as much thisyear, Raab said of his 28-foot Bertram fishing boat. I don't know what kind of damage the ethanol fuel might do, so I don't want to risk it too much.
Seaworthy magazine cautioned boaters last fall that ethanol could break down the fiberglass, creating a black sludge that gums upvalves and intake manifolds, destroying the boat's motor.
That's not a cheap fix, Madore said. It involves cutting out the tank and replacing it with an aluminum one. It's a lot of money andseveral weeks without your boat.
Brian Lefebvre, an assistant professor of chemical engineering at Rowan University, said ethanol's chemical characteristics raiseanother concern for boaters.
Ethanol can actually suck the moisture out of the air, so if there's any leaks or pressure problems with the fuel lines, it's goingto mix water into the fuel, he said.
Older boats with worn seals and gaskets on fuel systems are at greatest risk, Brown said.
It's going to cost owners some money in maintenance and repair at first, I think, he said,adding that occassional boaters would probably suffer the most.
The guys with their boat in the back yard they take out every once in a while, as soon as they have a problem with it, they'reprobably not going to be able to afford to repair it. They might not even getit in the water, Brown said. I feel really sorry for theguy who has an outboard and doesn't have any filtering system at all. He's in for real trouble.

__________________________


I am especially concerned about the plastic tank statements - considering I just put one in.


Carl

[captbent]

???AS I SEE A LOT OF USE LOOKED AT THIS POST IT DONT LOOK GOOD FOR US DOES IT, LETS SEE WHAT HAPPENS AND POST EVERYTHING THAT GOES BAD

[labii]

Is this stuff being used all over the country or in just a few states ?

[macojoe]

Its going every where!!!!!!!!!!! >:(

[TheTinMan]

found this:

How does ethanol affect my fiberglass fuel tank?
Fiberglass tanks manufactured prior to 1991 may not be compatible with gasoline containing ethanol. It has been reported that, in the presence of ethanol, some resins may be drawn out of fiberglass and carried into the engine where severe damage could occur. If an older fiberglass tank is used, check with the manufacturer to determine if gasoline with ethanol can be safely used.


Great...My 1990 has a plastic or fiberglass tank? I contacted Wellcraft to see if I need to be concerned.

[TheTinMan]

Here's where I got that info...more good info on Ethanol:

http://reel-time.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49486

[macojoe]

There was a piece on Channel % the other night with a guy from the north shore, He has a 31 foot 70 something Bertrum, Nice Boat!!

Its going to cost him $10,000 to tear up the Teak Deck and replace the fiberglass tank, which is one thing he bought the boat for, knowing that he would never have to replace it!

[Blue_Runner]

They (big oil crooks) should be made to pay half!! >:(

[TheTinMan]

I emailed Wellcraft this morning and already got a response.

My email:

I have a 1990 V-20 center console with a 60 gallon gas tank. The tank
is plastic or fiberglass? I know that ethanol in fuel can be harmful
to tanks made prior to 1991. Do I need to be concerned about ethanol
(10%) fuel in my tank?

Wellcrafts reply:

The tank in your boat is either Aluminum or roto cast polyethylene.
Our fuel systems are compliant with the standard for alcohol content in
gasoline of 10% which is the maximum allowed.
A number of material changes have occurred in fuel lines and gaskets
so it is prudent that you watch for softening of fuel lines or leaks
for a while after beginning use of ethanol fuels. This is no different
that the routine precautions you should be taking to inspect your fuel
system now.
Robert

[bigshrimpin]

Tin - you've got a poly tank in your boat. You don't have to worry . . . Only a few highend boat manufacturers used fiberglass tanks (Like Cabo, Bertram, etc.) . . . I'm still suspicious . . . of these peoples claims.

Can someone explain how Alcohol breaks down fiberglass resin? What materials changed in 1991 that makes newer fiberglass tanks immune? I want a scientific explanation . . . and I can't find one anywhere . . . #!@#

I wonder if it's the wax additive in polyester resin.

[labii]

TinMan , I'm very happy to hear that . This winter when / if I have time , I'm going to replace my fuel lines . It might be a pain but it can't cost that much .

[Blue_Runner]

Labii, I haven't seen any ethonal down here in NC yet. *Have you? *I'm sure its coming though.

[labii]

Do they have to post a sign that the fuel contains ethanol ? If so , I have not either .

[Skools Out]

Same here i haven't seen it here anywhere yet. :-/ Hope i don't anytime soon. ???

[LESTERUS]

I'VE JUST READ AN ARTICLE ABOUT THIS FUEL LAST NIGTH IN BOATUS MAGAZINE AND I'M WORRIED.IS THIS NEW MIX MARKET AT THE PUMP? HOW DO YOU KNOW
WHAT YOU'RE PUMPING? AS TO THE FILTERS, I RUN MY ENGINE WITH TWO WATER SEPARATORS IN LINE AND SINCE I BUY THE CARTRIDGES CHEAP ($2.99 A PIECE, 20 PC MIN.) I REPLACE ONE EVERY TWO TIMES I GO OUT AND (AS IF I SPENT ONE MORE GALLON OF GAS) AND THAT WAY KEEP THE SH.....T OUT OF THE CARB.

LESTERUS

[macojoe]

Here in Mass they have a sticker teling you that you are using 10% right on the pump.

Wait till you see the hoops yoyu have to jump when you put your boat away for the winter!! >:(

[parishht]

I have been reading that we may have to drain the tank.

I have also heard that the content could be up to 15%
and I thought I heard one of my co workers say that
a station was tested in our area and the content was 25%+ :-/

[msbhammer]

With all this crappy weather, I wont ever know as I sit here looking out the window at my sweet V, Seeing the wind and rain. :'( :'( :'( :'(

[willy]

Same here Hammer, what a crappy summer. First month it poured daily with thunderstorms looming constantly. Then weeks of dry hot humid crap, thought I was in Fla. in July. Actually I heard they were cooler there. Now this crap to close out the summer :-[

[LESTERUS]

WINTER.......? WONDER WHAT THAT IS......

[msbhammer]

60 mph winds coming through Lewes Delaware. Hope my bim top holds up. :'( :'(

[Duncan_Idaho]

I run a 2001 Yamaha 2 stroke on a 1988 v-20 cuddy. The boat started to bog down and wouldn't go over 1100 rpms. Pulled the boat and was told it was probably ethanol that was the culprit. There is a high preassure pump (fuel injected)located in a tank in the engine. They looked at the screen changed the filter and told me it was all gunked up with a white powdery substance. $300 00 dollars later they cleaned the screen and put it back in the water. Approx 2 hrs of running time same problem. I also noticed the boat didn't have the usual p/u and go, couldn't get it to go over 4100 rpms. Pulled the boat and was told this pump had to be replaced. These pumps go $700 and look like the cardboard portion of a toilet roll. Changed the filter/pump again and the boat screams. Somebody mentioned a product out there you add to you tank, it comes in a clear bottle and is blue in color Anybody know anything about it. Suppose to help with this problem. By the way my tank was manf. by a Co called INCA Manf. located in Indianna I think, its plastic and the engineer was very interested in this problem and asked if I would keep him updated. If you need to talk to them thier located on the internet via Google.

[phester]

I was ethanol fouled about three weeks ago, motor just started running rough, couldn't get WOT, seemed like h20 in the fuel. Turns out I had a deteriorated o-ring and some diaphragm thing in the fuel/vro pump. Anyway all good now. Since the intro of ethanol in N.Y., [10%] ,I did notice a reddish/brownish crud when I would change the h20 sep. and the other filter up on the motor. I live reasonably close to about 5 or 6 marinas/ outboard service so I would ask each mech. or salesperson what [if any] product can help w/ this ethanol problem and most everybody said that STARTRON ENZYME FUEL TREATMENT worked the best. I check and change my filters OFTEN and since the STARTRON additive my fuel and filters are clear as a bell. First dose....hit it hard, 1-1 1/2oz. for every 8 gallons of gas, after that, 1 oz. per 16 gallons of gas. Do it every time you fuel up. I also read some good reports on the STARTRON over at THT and Iboats and Noreast.com.....good luck

[parishht]

Duncan, I have read that your problem may be the Ethanol deteriorating your fule tank.

Phester, the ethanol is cleaning your tank of the shelac build up
from the fuel without ethanol.

[brianct12]

Duncan, Do you really think a degrading tank was the culprit of your filter residue ?? I also have a 1988 with a plastic tank - you have me a little worried now :) Not much we can do - but add some fuel treatment, check the filters, and hope for the best.

[Duncan_Idaho]

No I think the tank is fine. In fact when I first had this problem I peeked in the tank with a small mirror and a bright flashlight at night. Holding the light aganist the tank really illuminated the inside nicely. The tank looked clean as a whistle. I had more stuff floating around my lawn mower can than what was in my almost 20 yr old boat. What I just learned recently is don't mix old fuel with the new ethanol, it causes some kind of sludge/ shelac. Run the boat out of the old fuel and then replace just what you think you'll need with the new stuff. When this started I'd ask around if anybody else was having a problem, nobody seemed concerned. That has changed in this last month, the conversation is all about fuel. By the way in between the last post and this one I found that product and have introduced it to the fuel system. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[phester]

Duncan, I have read that your problem may be the *Ethanol deteriorating your fule tank.

Phester, the ethanol is cleaning your tank of the shelac build up
from the fuel without ethanol.
Affirmative Parishht, the new ethanol is cleaning out the tank, I guess I sorta got sidetracked in my own reply. The reason for the startron additive is to combat or abate the deteriorating effects the ethanol has on all of the motors fuel delivery components. Just as important, ethanol fuel evaporates quicker than the"old gas", and what evaporates away is replaced w/ water or moisture which is a big problem w/ inboard tanks. I've only ran about 30-40 gallons of gas since the repair and all seems well.I'd probably be more concerned if it were 25% ethanol as opposed to 10%

[sfprovyn]

I think fiberglass gas tanks is going to the big problem. The sport fishie boys down here may have to pull them out as it eats them up and the residue will clog up gas filters. I've also heard that two strokers will tolerate it better then 4 strokes but who knows.Other than that I plan on dumping in a can of seafoam at every 40 gallons or so but so far I dont think we have it down here in coastal NC and I check all the pumps when I gas up ...Frank

[fishbonejr]

what you need to do is put stableizer mixture in when you fuel. you put in however much the bottle ratio is its easy and saved me a new fuel tank and a tow bill.

[Geekie1]

Fiberglass tanks cast with polyester or epoxy resin are eaten up by ethanol fuel and if the residue gets into the engine, major damage can be done. Plastic tanks made of polyethelyne are not effected by ethanol and are definitely OK.

Ethanol will definitely break loose scale and varnish (clean) on the inside of the aluminum tank and if you don't have an effective filter, the crud will clog the carbs. Also, the filter should be able to filter as fine as 10 microns. I have installed a Racor 10 micron, 90 GPH filter on my boat. The 10 micron filter is fine enough to separate suspended water from the ethanol. My Racor filter has a clear bowl on the bottom that can be emptied by opening a valve when you see water.

[reelapeelin]

Here in SC there's a LAW that requires alcohol/ ethanol pumps to be LABELED as such...are we the only ones??...

[JeffXJ]

I dunno if it's law here or not, but in VA I've noticed those same labels at most the gas pumps I use.

[CT_V-20]

We've got it in CT. It's on the pump and the attendants tell you about it if you ask. No problems with it so far. First i checked my tank construction (aluminum), then I ran last year's gas down as low as i felt comfortable, changed my fuel/water filter, added the new gas and have had not even a fart since (knock wood). 5.7L fuel injected Mercruiser.

[TheTinMan]

NY pumps labelled "Contains 10% Ethanol".

[reelapeelin]

From what I'm gatherin', alcohol doesn't have that negative an affect on motors, but on the fuel-lines, tanks and fittings it runs thru...once those things start breakin' down, small (and large) particles invade the motor and cause probs in injectors and carbs...is anybody else gettin' this same ''jist'' outta this?... ??? ...

[parishht]

Absolutely the same jist.

I still am confused as to why carbs and injectors in car engines can handle the
clean out crap better than boat engines.

And he// my lawn mowers would run on gas that has
mud in it (fecesioutious comment)

[macojoe]

This from another post I have.

this what the clymer book says for Johnson & Evinrude, and it was published 1991, so they new it was coming!!

So I opened the repair manual to see how to adjust, and this is what I found

1.
Some gasolines sold for marine use now contain alcohol, although this fact may not be advertised. A mixtute of 10 % ethyl alcohol or ethanol and 90% unleaded gasoline is called gasohol. This is considered suitable for use in Johson and Evinrude outboards. Some gasolines, however, contain methyl alcohol or methanol. This is not recommended for 1973 to 1986 outboards and only under the provisions outlined under Proper Fuel Selection in this chapter for 1987 to 1990 models.


2.
If gasohol or a gasoline/methanol mixture (1987 to 1990 models) is used with any regularity, Johnson & Evinrude recommend that the carburetor jets be changed to provide a richer mixture to maintain good performance and pervent possible engin damage. See your dealer for recommended rejetting according to your needs.

[Sean]

heres a question for the experts...

I go out at least twice a week, and ever time I go I fill the tank. So I always have a full tank.
would it be better to run the tank almost empty to use up the fuel, or just continue to top it off each time?

[parishht]

MJ,
1991 was the first gas crisis,
that is when we had to buy gas on days when your license plate had a certain number.
Back then I bought a van and had commercial plates put on,
just to beat the system.

You are right, they probably thought GASAHOL was here to stay,
but then there was a glut of gas and the price came way down.
What is interesting is that Brazil went through the same
crisis, but they decided to keep producing the fuel and now
it is there main source.

[turbinedoctor]

heres a question for the experts...

I go out at least twice a week, and ever time I go I fill the tank. So I always have a full tank.
would it be better to run the tank almost empty to use up the fuel, or just continue to top it off each time?

According to Boat US magizine Seaworthy, The first choice would be to empty the tank completely. Since that is most likely not going to happen the second choice is to keep it at 95% full to cut down on condensation.

This I did not know, The NFPA national fire prevention association recomends this to cut down on explosive fumes in the tank.

I have been kicking around the idea of installing a air dryer on the vent line so when the tank breathes it will get dry air.

[macojoe]

The bad thing about this new gas is it starts to lose it octain after 14 days, and even with stabil in the gas I wonder how good the gas will be??

I have no idea what I have for has right now?? But I guess about 12 gals, I am going to put stabil in the tank and go out once or twice to check out the new motor on my boat, I will carry 6 gal of unmixed gas so if I run out I can mix and add.
Other wise I willl throw it in my truck when I get back in.

Going to be as empty as I can!!

[Skools Out]

the old gas lost octane in same time frame unless it was in 1000 gallon quanty.That was for anything higher than 86 Octane.

[turbinedoctor]

This Seaworthy article also said that regular gas and the E-10 have the same self life of about one year. This should be more than enough for a winter lay up. They still reccomend using a stabilizer.

Turbo

[macojoe]

Well if ture then this is great news!!

Because in the begining of all this they said that it started to lose power 14 days later??

I am just going to do as I always do, fog stabil change lower oil and put a blanket on it till spring!!

[chumbucket]

Well if ture then this is great news!!

Because in the begining of all this they said that it started to lose power 14 days later??

I am just going to do as I always do, fog stabil change lower oil and put a blanket on it till spring!!

Not before we go get some Cod! 8) Gotta test that new motor out on yer boat. ;D

[macojoe]

I am having lunch right now, we have the new motor off his boat hanging in the air, we will have it installed on mine in a hour!! Might even get it all wired today also??

[macojoe]

Boat U.S. Seaworthy Magizine is sujesting you fill the tank to 95 % with Stybil. Then in the spring add an octane booster then top off the tank after you put the booster in. You should be ready to go after that.

[Sean]

Empty, full, empty , full. It seems to change daily as to how to store for the winter.
I think the only shore fire method is to by a inclosure and fish for cod right to spring!

[macojoe]

I think the only shore fire method is to by a inclosure and fish for cod right to spring!

I like that Idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am going to do what I always have done!! What ever gas is in it will get stabil, and in the spring will top off and fish!!

[parishht]

I ran my tank down pretty far and then added a stabilzer.
I think there may be ten gallons in my 45 tank.
Anyway, I only left a little in so that any crud will not harden.
In the spring, I plan on cleaning out the tank,
pump out the old gas along with the crud.