How to defeat Russia….without nucs….

[bgreene]

Originally Posted by scook

This is where negotiation skill is important. Squeezing Putin personally increases the likelihood of him lashing out even more irrationally. Squeezing the oligarchs increases the likelihood of him being taken out internally.

It looks like we’re dealing with someone who’s gone around the bend and is best dealt with by his own people - they’ll be inclined to do it if they’re squeezed enough.

Agreed and it seems it will get worse before better.
Putin’s screwed up the world with this senseless destruction of Ukraine .

Longer term impact could very well be:
1. We return to focus on oil and gas drilling including in our vast and most pristine remaining natural regions, where spills and huge mess will no doubt occur- on land and sea.
Global warming pace continues to increase with all the disruptive impacts forecast.

2. Right wing Republican wins perhaps including trump return with longer term “ systems & personnel replacements” that ultimately result in our nation run by sudo-dictator - no longer a truly democratic nation. Disinformation becomes same as the Russians fed by their government and crack downs against Americans that don’t support .

Putin’s made a huge mess - he’s no genius - he’s an aging Russian KGB Director trying to reignite the Soviet Union.

[scook]

It is very likely to get worse before it gets better.

I think Putin is worse than just an aging KGB director. Clearly he wants to rebuild the former Soviet Union and has for many years. It seems that from isolation, or some other reason(s) he’s had a mental health deterioration beyond any condition he previously had. Condoleezza Rice, in a recent interview, said she knew him, had met several times with him and he seemed to be a very different person now than she remembered.

One positive thing he’s done I’d to unite most of the world against him.

An alternate view of the future is that we return to energy independence so that we’re not hostage to countries that hate us and want our destruction, and pursue renewable energy in a rational way, recognizing the facts of where we actually are. In a way that doesn’t brutalize the middle class and the poor and choke our economy. A healthy economy generates resources that can go to research toward reducing dependence on fossil fuels. Bjorn Lomborg suggests such an approach - investing a small percentage of GDP to make renewables CHEAP, and not punish regular people with astronomical energy prices.

Whatever Republican will hopefully be elected, we can look forward to a much more rational energy policy. With our separation of powers, the notion of a pseudo-dictator isn’t a remotely viable scenario - that has a zero probability of occurring. The closest we’re coming to that is the current progressive drive to encourage illegal voting and Biden’s repeated attempts to ignore clearly decided precedents by the Supreme Court, among legion other things.

Some of our energy deposits are located in vast, pristine parts of our land. Extraction takes place in what looks on a map like a minute speck of that land, and while there might be a spill, environmental requirements and much improved extraction technology would minimize even that, as well as making cleanup more thorough.

We need to be governed with a recognition of where we are and with executive skill - both of these components seem to be very much lacking right now.

[bgreene]

The “ speck on a map” you refer to is the actual well point.
The infrastructure …..roads , clear cutting, equipment ,housing, plumbing, pollution of diesel , noise and other destroys the fragile ancient remaining wild lands of America.

This is where we disagree, as I believe some very select exceptional fisheries, rivers , wild lands etc that are unsoiled heritage, are to be saved, rather than ruined for short term gain.

[scook]

It’s been a long time since I looked into this in any detail. It was my impression that the impact was minimal, but I absolutely agree that fish runs, rivers and ancient ecosystems need to be preserved. If we can extract energy while preserving these resources, we need to do it and get out of the grip of our enemies - I wish I had more time to study the issue.

Living out west, we’re pretty short of fish runs, impacted, among other things by hydroelectric dams built without fish passage built in and severe overfishing in early days, then the Russian fish factory ships raping our Alaskan fishery.

[bgreene]

Originally Posted by scook

It’s been a long time since I looked into this in any detail. It was my impression that the impact was minimal, but I absolutely agree that fish runs, rivers and ancient ecosystems need to be preserved. If we can extract energy while preserving these resources, we need to do it and get out of the grip of our enemies - I wish I had more time to study the issue.

Living out west, we’re pretty short of fish runs, impacted, among other things by hydroelectric dams built without fish passage built in and severe overfishing in early days, then the Russian fish factory ships raping our Alaskan fishery.

Yes and the reason WHY we we put into law to protect our a few very special natural habitats .

[bgreene]

Combination of Ukraine’s determination , sanctions, and free world unity may win.

Precarious as Putin could do anything but this is another pivotal time in history .
The truth , and the facts made clear against Putin and Tyranny .

[scook]

Precarious indeed. He doesn’t seem to be stopping - still murdering civilians, and I think any Ukrainian military personnel killed should be considered murder as well.

Looks likely that he’ll take over Ukraine, at least the big cities and communication infrastructure, though the locals are pretty resourceful. He didn’t learn his lesson in Afghanistan, but he may be that much crazier now.

If the sanctions and the dedicated Ukrainian military wear him down without him deciding to end the world, we’ll see how it shakes out.

[charlie_the_tuna]

Don’t worry all. President ice cream cone has Putin right where he wants him. Didn’t you all see that biden put sanctions on sending seafood and diamonds to Russia?!? Just you wait until Putin has to go without his lobster tails and diamond cuff links. He’s gonna fold like a cheap suit. Yeah, this biden character is a real leader.
Not like that Trump guy who told Putin ‘if you attack Ukraine, I’ll turn the kremlin into a parking lot’. And Putin believed him.
Yeah, you must be proud of all Biden’s accomplishments. If he ever has one, don’t hesitate to tell us about it.

[bgreene]

Originally Posted by charlie_the_tuna

Don’t worry all. President ice cream cone has Putin right where he wants him. Didn’t you all see that biden put sanctions on sending seafood and diamonds to Russia?!? Just you wait until Putin has to go without his lobster tails and diamond cuff links. He’s gonna fold like a cheap suit. Yeah, this biden character is a real leader.
Not like that Trump guy who told Putin ‘if you attack Ukraine, I’ll turn the kremlin into a parking lot’. And Putin believed him.
Yeah, you must be proud of all Biden’s accomplishments. If he ever has one, don’t hesitate to tell us about it.

Really ? Trump threatened Putin over the Ukraine ?
Actually When Zelenskyy won in a landslide, Trump actually withheld military aid to Ukraine, sending personal emissaries to Kyiv to try to pressure and undermine Zelenskyy in the eyes of Ukrainians by asking him to “do us a favor “ and try to find dirt of Bidens son.

Trump never cared about the Ukraine

[scook]

I think it was more “do something about how dirty Biden’s son was” - the dirt was there for everyone to see. Of course, the dishonest democrats in congress and the dishonest media let their bias and self interest run wild and tried to make Trump look bad, and give Biden’s extremely dishonest son a pass. This was after Biden as VP, threatened to withhold a huge amount of aid unless the previous administration in Ukraine stopped the investigation of his son and bragged about it on video.