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[jeffmo]

Originally Posted by willy

That my friend is a very unionesque view of what is going on. Coming from thirty years in a public sector union I know as well that most of what you said is not correct.
The fact opf the matter ois that in many states public sector unions are controlling state politics to the extent that it is destroying the states.
There is no getting around that period. Here in NJ the teachers union for example are crushing the citizens with budgets and taxes that are driving people out of the state.
You cannot afford to live here especially if you are on a fixed income like a retiree.
Unions are contributing their money to left wing social engineering and the heads of the major unions like Trumka are literally out and out communists and freely admit it.
Unions like the AFLCIO and SEIU are the major backers and thugs for the demo/socialist party and everyone in the country knows it.
Many in the unions cannot stand these sh!tbirds but have no say where their money goes.
That is wrong and everyone knows that too.
Unions are a good thing, being organized and making sure working conditions are safe and bargaining for contracts are needed, but what has happened here in the U.S is the public sector workers in particular are earning on average thirty percent more than the people in the private sector doing the same job and those folks are paying their wages and benefits.On top of that the public sector employees have increased many fold under the Obamination's regime, all for more power to the left in this country.
While I support a private sector unions right to push for their members what we have in this country for decades now is out of control federal and state spending and the wages and benefits for those workers are now bankrupting the country.
Every single tom dick and harry in this country knows it. It is just that the unions, especially their leadership could not care less.
And there in a nut shell is where it is at.

Unionesque? well,yours seemed rather TeaPartyesque.
And coming from over 22 years of public fire service I can't say what exactly is happening in any other state(with the exception of Wisconsin) but it's very apparent that you have little knowledge about what has happened here in Ohio over the last year or so.
But let's not beat around the bush here either,it's apparent that you feel pretty much at ease with calling union members thugs and I think that's about a BS statement especially when discussing people like teachers,leo's and firefighters.But everyone has their right to their opinion.mine is this,I personally KNOW what has occurred where I live.I know who brought the dirty fight to who.I saw what was hidden away in our Republican governors' "labor bill" and it was nothing more than BS ALEC backed poor politics.I seem to remember a thread i began a while back where someone questioned whether the firefighters shown at a rally had called in sick.Such assumptions are funny at best to me.
The republicans had MAJOR backing for the anti-labor proposal here in Ohio but didn't legally have to disclose WHO or HOW MUCH had been donated.The people who fought the bill disclosed all donations and where they came from.Why did the Republicans feel the need to hide their benefactors???
To elaborate a little further,the republicans here had proposals submitted to them for changes to the police and fire pension system that would have helped bring the system back into the stipulation of a 30 year solvency that is required by law.The proposals were tabled purposely for one reason,so they would be able to TRY to use it as ammunition for their cause when they introduced their legislation.they TRIED to make it appear as if the public sector workers had better pay and benefits than most in the private sector.When the facts of that matter came to light they found themselves looking VERY foolish to the public and it was a major part of why their bill was voted down by the public with 63% of the voters saying no to it!
You say that "the public sector workers in particular are earning on average thirty percent more than the people in the private sector doing the same job and those folks are paying their wages and benefits." well,here in Ohio the Republicans TRIED to say that number was 41%!!! That too was proven to be wrong.But let me ask this,Here in Ohio public sector workers are also tax payers just the same as private sector workers.If the same applies to where you live then why attempt to make it sound as if they AREN'T? Where I work I pay more taxes than some of the people who I protect! And I'm curious,where is there a comparable in the private sector to firefighting or law enforcement?
and btw,our governor while employed by the Lehman Bros.,lost over $480 million of the police & fire pension fund monies.
Unions contributing to the Democratic party simply balances the scales of big business people like the Koch Bros. and ALEC members contributing to the Republican party.
your assumption that public employees numbers have increased under this President is also flawed concerning safety forces.It's common knowledge in the fire service that many departments across the country have been operating short staffed due to the economy for over 10 years now.Contrary to what you may beleive or think,the IAFF mainly lobbies for safety issues for it's members.Any negotiations contractually is done here in Ohio by members of the local.
And there in a nut shell is where it is at precisely.

[willy]

If you have a different situation in Ohio than the rest of the country with State and federal workers then you may have a point.
And if that is true then you did what you had to do there.
I do know what I said is true in regards to many other states.
I do not know the Koch brothers or any other organization, I speak for what I know and see.
Here in the eastern states and in many of the midwestern states along with California what I said is right on the money.
I am a strong believer that every state should be a right to work state.
Any thing else is un-constitutional and wrong.
I don't care what anyone else says about it.
I remember being down right pissed off at my Police and Fire Union here in NJ for what they did and who they supported many times.
We literally bought democratic politicians every year.
You call that evening the political landscape, no that is graft and corruption.
It also is what has led to the bankrupting of many of our states.
There does not exist the money to pay for the public sector packages that are out there and everyone knows it.
We have kicked the can down the road for decades.
So instead of trying to work it out the large national unions, the large public unions are holding the bought and paid for politicians to their promises and keeping good people from working it out. Yes in a highly unionized state like Ohio and NJ you are going to get the majority to fight common sense reforms.
I do not know all your politicians but I know John Casik (sp)he is a good and decent man and he is trying to turn around a state that is heading into the crapper and he might just make it happen for Ohio if everyone put themselves in the fight together but he has been fought tooth and nail since he got there.
Millions of dollars from democratic and union cofers around the country went into the campaign against him and if you think three or four years from now you are going to be better off in Ohio for the onslaught he is facing I believe you are dead wrong.
The only chance these states, including mine has got is to support common sense reforms, make your states competitive with the rest of the country and attract new jobs and companies. Casik was trying to do that for all the people in your state. I hope Ohio comes through these times well, I wish you and your brother FF all the best.
But I will tell you from what I have seen Governors like him and in Wisconsin and in NJ are trying to save the states from going bankrupt and not paying anyone there pensions and benefits.
They are trying to save the people of Ohio, NJ and WI. And they are not bought and paid for by big labor and that is the reason that the unions are after them.
Because they had the courage to do the right thing and stand up for all the people.
Oh, thank you very much for the Tea Party compliment, I much appreciate that.

[Destroyer]

Jeffmo, I'm not going to quote you, because it would be unnecessarally long and I want to keep this post relatively short.
First, would you please enlighten me..what is this ALEC that you refered to several times? I really don't know and it might help me better understand what you were trying to say. Also, you mentioned leos? Again, I don't know what or who they are. Thanks

As to your post in general, before I start, let me say that because I was both a union member for 10+ years (IBEW-AFL-CIO), and then management for 15 years or so it gives me the unique ability to see both sides perhaps a little clearer than most people.

That being said, your comments are pure union kool-aid. You really need to broaden your horizons and see both sides of the situation.

I don't know about 30% more vs 41% more vs no percent more, but I can tell you from being on the school board here in my home town that the teachers here earn $60,000 average in the public sector, while the teachers in the private schools in the area earn $40,000 per year average. (And the students in the private sector usually get much better grades....go figure.) I can't comment on the fire fighters because we have a volunteer force. And it's hard to put a finger on the police because really there isn't a private sector equivalent.

But the point isn't really about who makes more, or who makes less.. The point is that for a long, long, long, time public sector unions have enjoyed pensions that are simply UNSUSTAINABLE now. I'm not saying that the people that earned them in the past have no right to them. Far from it. They earned it, that was the contract, so be it.. pay them! BUT it's time to start changing the contract for new hires. They need to start paying into their pensions just like everyone in the private sector. They need to start paying for their health care just like everyone in the private sector. The era of the free lunch is OVER. Can't you see that? It used to be that the public sector unions were paid less than private sector people for the same types of jobs, but the trade off was they got a better pension when they retired.. but that's NOT true anymore. Now the public sector unions are making MORE than the private sector people that support them, but they still want the same pensions, they still want the free health care, they still want the free pensions and benefits. The people of this counrty are already paying over 50% of their money in taxes....much of it to support union pay and pensions for public sector employees. Don't you understand? THE WELL IS DRY!!! We don't have the money anymore. We're broke!!

All you (the unions) are to the Democrats is a bunch of stooges. A voting block whose votes they are buying by promising you better this and better that, etc etc etc. But really... do they EVER deliver? Ask yourself, are you better off today then you were in the past? Are you?

And don't parrot the lie that the Democrats feed you that they are for the little people and the Republicans are for big buisness... the fact of the matter is exactly the opposite. Big business is only too happy and activelly supports the Democrats with huge campaign contributions. One only has to look at the heads of GE, GM, Chrysler, Disney, Warner Bros, & MGM for examples. Ditto with Wall Street.. does the name George Soros ring a bell with you? Morgan-Stanley? Bank of America? AIG? Dude.... You're a puppet being used, and you don't even know it. Big business helps both the Democrats & the Republicans, That's how they control you.

Instead of looking down at Tea Party people, perhaps you should actually LISTEN to what they are saying.

You're a good union employee, I have no doubt about that, and I thank you for your service as a firefighter. It's a dangerous job that doesn't get nearly enough recognition. If you want to be an even better fireman, go to a few Tea Party meetings... maybe you'll learn something. Maybe you'll see how you're being used. Maybe you'll stop just spouting party lines. (Not saying you're dumb, just saying that you're woefully misinformed.)

[jeffmo]

I'll try to reply to your post by the point you've made.

First,LEO's are Law enforcement officers.
ALEC is the driving force behind the agenda that many Republican governors have tried to implement in a number of states.A part of their ideals is to eliminate public sector unions.another is to eliminate a number of regulations withing the EPA.Here in Ohio we have just seen another of the abuses of power when our governor and the republican controlled hous & senate submitted a bill that among other things states that doctors do not have to tell safety forces workers,nurses and other workers the direct dangers if they have been exposed to chemicals used in the Hydraulic fracking process.
In Ohio,Michigan,Wisconsin and several other states,the Republican governors have introduced ALEC based legislation such as their anti-union bills.they are so similar that it's impossible to deny that they are a part of the ALEC agenda.only a fool would think that all of these very similar bills were introduced at the same time by sheer coincidence.
Some information about ALEC.

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

MY horizons were broadened last year by getting a thorough education as to what a political agenda looks like first hand! They have been broader than alot of people because I don't vote party lines.I've voted for ALOT of Republican since I first voted in 1977.But what happened here was exactly as I stated.We were un-fairly made to be scapegoats for a budget problem that didn't exist.I was at our statehouse when Ohios anti-labor bill was introduced.The Senator who introduced it was so ver ignorant about what was in the bill that when she was questioned by committee members about it she actually looked very foolish because she continually said that she didn't know many of the specifics o the bill.As i said earlier,the Ohio Police & Firefighters board people had submitted necessary pension changes to the lawmakers and they were sat on simply for political reasons.It wasn't too hard of a battle to win because almost every time the pro side would bring a new Ad out or one of their reps would speak about it,they were proven to be wrong and the voters saw through it.It was a farce to say the least.
I can't speak for how things are done or handled in the IBEW-AFL-CIO or any other union.My experience is within the Fire and I do have some knowledge of the workings of the Police union.But i can say that The democrats didn't bring this battle to us.It was definately the Republicans.And their agenda was/is to eliminate their competition.I don't appreciate being put in themiddle of a political war the was we were.We had no choice but to fight back or be forced to do a very dangerous jobs for about 15% less because IF Senate Bill 5 HAD passed,that was the paycut we were facing.Now,don't think that it was simply about money.They wanted to change collective bargaining so much that we would have had NO voice in matters such as negotiating for safety equipment.We would have been at the mercy of local elected officials for everything from fire gloves to new trucks and everything in between.THAT would have been disasterous!
We do pay into our pensions as do people in the private sector.Do people who work for a private company pay 100% of their Social Security?, no they do not.
For us,our pension is it.IF we work a 2nd job we can qualify for SS but it is at such a reduced rate that it is hardly worth the effort.If there IS a "free lunch" program I hav'e found the line for it yet!

This statement is simply wrong:

"Now the public sector unions are making MORE than the private sector people that support them, but they still want the same pensions, they still want the free health care, they still want the free pensions and benefits."

As I said in my other post.the Republicans here in Ohio TRIED to say publicly that the average public sector worker made 41% more than a comparable in the private sector.Well,it was researched and when it was made public that it just wasn't so they lost face and steam for their fight.
Personally I seriously doubt that you or many other people would do my job for the pay I receive.After 21 years and a promotion,I top out at a shade over $40k per year.I would have walked had SB5 passed.not because I would have been pissed because of the cuts made but because I simply could not have made ends meet by taking a 15% cut.I knew going in that I'd never get rich by being a firefighter but I never thought that myself and the other people in my line of work(plus teachers,and LEOs) would have EVER been made out to be scapegoats needlessly.
What many people don't realize is that due to the economy,many departments have been operating short staffed for over 10 years now.During that time our department like many others have taken pay freezes and agreed to higher insurance contributions plus,began providing EMS services which in our case,and we're a smallish department,brings in an average of $375-$400k per year! So despit what some may beleive, we are doing MORE with less and for less.
As i have said,the Republican brought this fight to us.Do we historically back the Democrats,in the fire service the answer is yes. here in Ohio the FOP has backed Republican candidates more often than not.but,last year when the same republican senate candidates asked different FOP locals for their backing,they were asked IF they would still back collective bargaining.they answered yes but when the vote for SB5 rolled around they went back on their word.Most of the 8 or 9 will probably be voted out of office because their words cannot be trusted.
Have the Democrats delivered for the fire union? definately yes! they have backed many different laws that help us where safety is concerned.they backed us after 9-11 by helpng sick rescue workers get the help they needed after exposure problems related to groung zero.

"
Instead of looking down at Tea Party people, perhaps you should actually LISTEN to what they are saying."
I don't beleive that I have done any such thing.I simply stated to willy that his response sounded "teapartyesque".Nothing more than being told how My post sounded "unionesque". I don't care for what many of the teaparty factions have morphed into in recent years but I do not look down on anyone for beleiving in what they choose to.
My opinion is that i over the last year and a half,I've learned more about BOTH parties than a great many people have or ever will.I was forced to.I hate politics.It' the worst part of my job.But,BECAUSE i work for politicians,I like the ability that we have to negotiat a legally binding agreement that BOTH entities must abide to.It helps to prevent us from being kicked around for political reasons.and beleive me,it most definately happens!
My personal beleif is that the MAJOR problem we now have in this country is the Ultra right and Ultra left extremist views that have divided us.It seems as if people are brainwashed by either Fox news or MSNBC and don't seem to have the ability to educate themselves about politicians or issues any more.little gets accomplished when both sides do nothing but point the finger at each other and attempt to lay blame.Both sides share the blame.

[jeffmo]

Willy,please explain to me FACTUALLY why you say this?:

"I do not know all your politicians but I know John Casik (sp)he is a good and decent man and he is trying to turn around a state that is heading into the crapper and he might just make it happen for Ohio if everyone put themselves in the fight together but he has been fought tooth and nail since he got there."

He's pulled more underhaned tactics since he took office than most other Governors combined!
I'll list some of the things he's done but several are that:

When Senate Bill 5 went to committe and was about to be vote on Kasich found out that one of the Republican Senators(Seitz) was going to vote No on it's passage.Kasich had him replaced by using an article that allows for a member to be replaced in cases of emergency or family problems,etc.NOT because the Governor disagrees on how the member was going to vote.

When meeting were held on SB5 they were done so w/out asking Democrats to sit in on the meetings.Their input was never asked for!

When ammendments to the bill were made a copy was hand delivered to the Columbus Dispatch(a Kasich backer) before the democrats were allowed to see them.The Democrats were given a copy 1/2 hour before they went back into session.

Kasich,early in his term was pulled over in Columbus by a Coumbus Police officer.Later while speaking about the incident(Kasich being in the wrong!),Kasich repeatedly called the officer and "Idiot".

His "jobsOhio" program is now probably headed to court due to so many questions about it's legality (tax dollars being used for a private business!).BTW,the same type of situation id going on in Indiana with their Governor).

Allowing the fracking process to start up in our state parks.If that wasn't bad enough he changed regulations that allowed the process to happend even closer to campground and water sources.

Now,those are just a few that i remembered off the top of my head.If you'd like i can post more examples.So pardon me but please don't try to tell me what a great guy he is,myself and alot of the people here in Ohio happen to know better because of his actions not what he says on Fox news.He is just one of so many newly elected Republican Governors who are attempting to push the ALEC agenda.

[Destroyer]

Thanks for the definition on leos.. Never heard of that term used before, but then again, that's not my field so that's not unusual.

Since there was no specific definition for ALEC, I went searching on the internet. This is what I found on Wikipedia.

The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is an 501(c)3 American charitable and educational organization, comprised of conservative thinkers, state legislators of both parties, businesses and foundations that exists for the purpose of drafting research, policy papers and model legislation to assist and influence state legislatures and promote free-market and conservative ideas. According to the organization's website, members share a common belief that "government closest to the people" is "fundamentally more effective, more just, and a better guarantor of freedom than the distant, bloated federal government in Washington, D.C." ALEC is perhaps best known for drafting model legislation on issues such as tax treatment of corporations, tightening voter identification rules, and promoting gun rights, that can be easily adopted by state legislators and introduced as legislation. ALEC also serves as a networking tool among state legislators, allowing them to research the handling and "best practices" of policy in other states.
ALEC currently has more than 2,000 legislative members representing all 50 states, amounting to nearly one-third of all sitting legislators, as well as more than 85 members of Congress and 14 sitting or former governors who are considered alumni. ALEC also claims approximately 300 corporate, foundation, and other private-sector members.

Interesting. It appears that at least one orginazition is actually trying to do something about the bloated government in Washington.

I'm at work right now and don't really have the time to address the rest of the post, but I wanted to thank you for the definition of leos and share with everyone the defination of ALEC. More later.

[willy]

That type of conservative organization, just like the Tea Party is in the sights of the public sector unions and the vilifying of both as right wingers is the problem American Citizens are having.
Just as the speaking the truth has become hate speech in the eyes of the left in this country so has anything which promotes responsibility in how the government does business is right wing.
No one is putting the blame soley on union workers, nor on the bought and paid for politicians. It is on both groups not acting responsibly or ethically.
And now the discussion is turning to what have we wrought.
We have pensions and health liabilities we cannot pay period, NJ alone is 40 BILLION DOLLARS in the red in their mishandling and mis managing the public sector pension fund.
The private sector saw this coming two decades ago and switched their employees to private held 401k type plans, and the medical benefits are being payed by various amounts of contributions from the members along with the companies.
They are sharing the pain.
We must change the future benefits packages for the public sector unions, everyone who looks at the numbers knows this.
But God forbid an honest politician tries to get it done.
Vilified and targeted by multi million dollar national campaigns to destroy them.
This is the left demo/progressive/socialist party in America and the big unions especially are their main supporters.
Fire fighters, teachers, sanitation workers, police, EMS etc. etc. are going to have to make serious changes for all new hires.
It is coming, there is no choice, it must be done for the survival of all the states and our country.

[jeffmo]

Here in Ohio our Governor said that passing SB5 was a must to balance his budget.It was defeated soundly and he still balanced his budget.It's been very dirty politics here and it doesn't look like it's going to get clean any time soon!
You'll get no argument out of me that the pension system that I'm a part of needed changes.But,as I have said,those changes were submitted and were sat on for political reasons.They were made recently.added service years,increased employee contributions are a couple of the major changes that have been made.
Just out of curiosity,what exactly happend to so many 401ks after wall street got their hands on that money? It's the same thing that happened to the $480 million of Ohio Police & Fire pension monies and it happened a week or so ago when we witnessed another mega bank that made "bad choices".CALpers(the California Public employees retirement system) had about $600 million with that bank.I wonder if the money will be returned or if it will be "lost"!
Overall,I blame Politicians,the money that they waste and greed within big business for the situation we're now in.

[Destroyer]

Ok, actually you raise some valid points... like everything else in life there are always 3 sides to every story.. What both sides say and what really happened. Like you, I'll try to reply to your post by the points you've made.

Some information about ALEC.

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

I followed that link, and read the "information" that was contained therein.
I found it biased and misleading beyond belief. With a LOT of digging I found that Alecexposed.org claims it is a member of a group of other activist orginazitations, among them are PRWatch.org, SourceWatch.org, BanksterUSA.org, Foodrightsnetwork.org, and AtrazineExposed.org. These are all part of the Center for Media and Democracy, and are all funded by ....you guessed it....George Soros.

The site goes to great lenghts to expose how Governor Walker has ruined Wisconson and why there is an effort to recall him. So lets look at the truth, not what the site says. For more than a generation in Wisconsin, the power of special interests and the liberal elite have gone largely unchecked. Gov Walkers administration finally stood up to them, and they changed the way they did things in government in Wisconsin. That's why his opponents are trying to recall him. They want to roll back the clock and take us back to the days of skyrocketing taxes, bloated budgets, and unchecked and unaccountable spending. The day he became Governor, he set about the work that the people of Wisconsin sent him to do. He eliminated the deficit left by his Democrat predecessor. HE gave the freedom of choice to public employees. The reforms have allowed public employees to decide if they would like to spend (in some cases more than a thousand dollars a year in dues) or keep their hard earned money. They finally put the control of state government back where it belongs, in the hands of the people. He kept his promises to the voters in Wisconsin. He didn’t raise taxes. There were not the massive lay offs of state workers that his opponents said would happen. His reforms have balanced the budget and lowered the unemployment rate to a level unseen since 2008.

ALEC is not just about Wisconsin or Ohio, it is about the cause of reform across this country. It is about deciding what kind of country we are going to be for generations to come. We must send a message that we can and will live within our means. We must not hand power back to a small group of special interests and let them run state governments into the ground across this great nation for their own gains.

The Senator who introduced it was so very ignorant about what was in the bill that when she was questioned by committee members about it she actually looked very foolish because she continually said that she didn't know many of the specifics of the bill.

Much like Nancy Pelosi when she said she didn't know what was in the Health Care Bill and that Congress had to pass it before they could find out what was contained inside it?

Of course ALEC has a political agenda. It's agenda is to reduce a bloated federal government and bring more control back to the states. It also is trying to reduce the tax impact on every single citizen of this Country. The way you do that is by reducing spending. I'm NOT saying that everything they do is perfect and above board...no organization is perfect. But in order to reduce spending you must do EXACTLY that ...REDUCE spending on all levels. Obviously there are certain things you cannot reduce in the interests of the safety of the citizens. (You cannot abolish the police force or Fire Dept. for example) But you can cut back on out of control unions that are used to getting everything they want year after year. Again, like I said before, I'm not saying that what was earned before should be reduced... a contract is a contract. But I am saying that reductions need to be made. And I'm putting my own self where my mouth is.... My wife works for the DMV in our state. She's had her work hours changed, reduced and her pay has been frozen for two years now. Plus she gets unpaid furlow days. It hurts us financially of course. So I'm feeling the pinch just like you. But I recognise that it's necessary if we are to close the 40 BILLION dollar deficit that our previous Governors on both sides rolled up ...much of it to corrupt politicians, contractors and out of control unions. This is exactly the kind of thing ALEC is trying to stop, contrary to the lies that George Soros would have you believe.

I can't speak for how things are done or handled in the IBEW-AFL-CIO or any other union. But i can say that The democrats didn't bring this battle to us.It was definately the Republicans.

Well, thank God for the Republicans. At least some party is trying to cut the out of control spending!!

We had no choice but to fight back or be forced to do a very dangerous jobs for about 15% less because IF Senate Bill 5 HAD passed,that was the paycut we were facing

As I've said many time, a contract is a contract. Those that agreed to the terms of that contract should, by all means, reap them. New hires, on the other hand, should not get those benefits. If it was a 15% or a 1% pay cut doesn't really matter.. A persons sells themselves for the pay they are offered. If it's 15% less than people that are already employed then so be it.. They don't have to take the job. If 15% is necessary for the survival of all the citizens of the State then 15% it is.. This is much too serious a matter for lying. So if they were truly lying then they deserved to be defeated.. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between the two points of view.

We would have been at the mercy of local elected officials for everything from fire gloves to new trucks and everything in between.THAT would have been disasterous!

Why? The citizens of your state pay your saleries...the local elected officials are their duly elected representives with a fiducary responsibility to the citizens to oversee spending . Absloutely they should have a say in what they buy.


This statement is simply wrong:
"Now the public sector unions are making MORE than the private sector people that support them, but they still want the same pensions, they still want the free health care, they still want the free pensions and benefits."

It is not wrong, I provided first hand knowledge that, in the case of the teachers union at least, it is 100% factual.

As I said in my other post.the Republicans here in Ohio TRIED to say publicly that the average public sector worker made 41% more than a comparable in the private sector.Well,it was researched and when it was made public that it just wasn't so they lost face and steam for their fight.

Researched by who? What was the actual percentage? I'd be interested in knowing what was made public. Do you have a source for that claim?

Personally I seriously doubt that you or many other people would do my job for the pay I receive.

Very true. First, I'm too old, second, I live in the tri-state area, with the highest taxes and saleries in the Nation. But I was a volunteer member of the New Jersey Forest Fire Service for several years, and I've fought my share of fires... the worst one being in Bass River State forest back in the 70's. I've eaten my share of smoke.

Little gets accomplished when both sides do nothing but point the finger at each other and attempt to lay blame. Both sides share the blame.

On that I agree 100%, which is exactly WHY the Tea Party exists. We're just average citizens that are mad as hell at the lies that have been fed to us by both parties. Presently we're engaged in a war to remove the RINO's (Republicans In Name Only) from our party and the Socialist Democrats of the left from our Government. We're not a bunch of kooks, racists, radicals, or monsters that the left and their controlled media dogs have led you to believe. We are you. We are everyman and everywoman in this country that wants our freedoms and our Country back. Your very future and the future of your wife and kids depends on our success. Join us..

[jeffmo]

Destroyer,
I gave that link to ALEC to show what is going on.They have an "official" site also.the truth is that there were so many anti public unions bills that were introduced by these newly elected governors which were basically identical, that there was little doubt that there was a connection.After some digging it was found that they were a part of the ALEC agenda.
Now,agree with their plans or not it makes no difference but,there's little doubt where these bills came from.
Reducing spending is fine but,where is the reduction where it comes to the high salaries and bonuses of some of these company high ups? we witnessed some of their concerns after the bailouts when they continued with business as usuall with those bonuses.To work fairly,there has to be give and take from everyone not just the people working for a living.
Walker gave no freedoms.I can't speak for the workers of Wisconsin but There are no safety forces workers in Ohio where union membership is mandatory.I beleive the same goes for most other public sector workers also.Now,no proof but i would say that the same would be true in Wisconsin.Ohio's version of Walkers bill was SB5 and we heard the very same thing about how it would save jobs and was needed to balance the budget.simply put,it wasn't true.the bill failed soundly,there were no layoffs and the budget was balanced.
I agree that we should never be controlled by a small group but thast just isn't the current case here.No one is holding our state hostage now or have they in the past.Our collective bargaing laws were passed in 1983 and have worked very well for the employers and the workers because it gave BOTH a means to negotiate and agree to terms that in many cases save money.

To be truthful I really hated it when Pelosi made that statement and I certainly do not agree with everything our President has done or said(probably never will w/ ANY President).But,so did alot of the republican,teapartiers and democrats.But,to use that as a means to justify another wrong or say "Much like Nancy Pelosi" makes absolutely no sense at all.Are we keeping score?? I genuinely was embarassed to hear how poorly Senator Jones was prepared to answer questions about SB5.It seemed to have set the tone for the entire pro/anti campaign on the bill.

Let me make a point a little clearer.
Sb5's failing didn't translate into safety forces being given a blank check to buy whatever we want as far as safety equipment goes.As an example,when we need to make a purchase for a piece of equipment there are laws in place that we must abide by to make sure that the best product is specked out for the money that has been alloted,a fair system of bidding is in place,etc..What the concern was that IF SB5 had passed we would have had NO voice at the negotiations table whatsoever for anything from gloves to a new Engine.Take the time and imagine being at the mercy of an elected officials opinion of what their definition of "safe" is when purchasing equipment that is used for the safety of the public AND the firefighters.The stipulations of the bill would have kept collective bargaining in place by name only.the fact was that after any negotiations,the employer would have had the final say in ALL matters.THAT would not have been "bargaining" at all.But,they decided to keep it in place by name in an attempt to fool the voters by saying that it was still in place.

You say "Well, thank God for the Republicans. At least some party is trying to cut the out of control spending" as if only the Democrats have been guilty.
Well,I've witnessed out of control spending that has been done equally by BOTH parties.I have also seen the results of it AND the bad economy.While some of that spending was taking place,We had layoffs which equalled critically un-safe manning.All while some "pet projects" were completed by politicians.
If you don't beleive anything else I tell you,you can beleive that no one hates seeing wasted money more than I do.It's made my job alot more dangerous and much more difficult.Most departments here have also seen the same thing happen.

Here is one of the sources that somewhat explains the truth about pay differences between private and public sector workers.In the case of firefighters though it's pretty difficult to have a comparable in the private sector.Now,if you do not give any credit to the source then I'll be willing to look at any others but,the truth is that the Pro SB5 people did inflate the numbers where public service workers pay was concerned.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...e-not-overpaid

Now,I'll say that I am also a middle of the road type where politics are concerned.I know that might not seem that way where this topic is concerned but it is very true.I've voted republican as well as democrat over the years. but I'll say that I am a democrat more so than a Republican when it comes to declaring one party or the other.My personal opinion is that we now have a divided nation with the majority of the people having either ultr right or ultra left views.until that ceases little will get accomplished.
We have witnessed some pretty dirty politics during the entire SB5 ordeal here.I'll be the first to admit that the democrats aren't blameless either.like I said,I didn't agree with Pelosi and personally do not like her at all.But a very telling fact about SB5 was that when the bill was introduced by the governor,pushed through the house and senate,the idea to include the politicians in it was brought up and it was shot down with no talks! At the same time the new budget was introduced there was an addition that would have reduced the senate and house salaries by 5%.it was also shot down with no talk.But,SB5 would have cut all affected employees overall salaries by 12%-15%.Where is the leadership by example that is so badly needed?
LIke I said,you'll find no one that hates wasted money in the public sector more than I do.I just beleive that the blame was wrongly placed and that proposals to fix the problems within the police & fire pension system were sat on instead of being implemented which told me that they were more interested in playing politics than they were fixing a problem.Since then the changes have been made and workers are paying more towards pensions and putting in more years of service among other things.
Now,I'm gonna go back to talking about boats and fishing!
I sure hope that I haven't created any hard feelings with this discussion.