still here!!!

[RWilson2526]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

One a personal note though, I will say that when the public sector (union and non-union alike) gets better pensions and health care than the people that are actually paying for it (the taxpayers) then I think it's time to at the very least revisit everything.

I think when we revisit this situation we need to also consider why is the private sector not getting what they used to. Nobody cared in the past how much these union workers were making when their 401K's were getting funded, and worked for big GE's and Westinghouse's and ATT's and had nice pensions. Those types of benefits are gone now due to foreign competition, regulations and whatever other reason and now instead of complaining about private sector problems we are going to turn on union workers and say why does he get more than me?

I understand that those days are gone of the big companies and pensions but the whole thing really smacks of a little of jealousy in my opinion.

I'm all for states having to balance their budgets and do what they have to do. Wisconsin definitetly had a sweet deal with something .5% contribution to their pensions and 0% to their health care. Thats a perfect argument and the one they should stick with. We dont have the money anymore. period. And additionally I dont know why I rarely hear it mentioned on the news but at least in Wisconsin they will still be able to collectively bargain on their salaries which I think is pretty big.

[RidgeRunner]

I am jealous. I don't have collective bargaining rights. My pay is less than it was in 2006. I am happy because I still have a job and a family that I love and cherish. I do not have a dog in the fight, this is my observation only... Used to be, any government job (city,county,state,federal) never paid that well but you could rely on job security and benefits. Nowdays, pay for government jobs are outpacing the private sector. Something will have to give in order to attempt to balance the budget at every level of government. The choices should not be made in haste. Where would I start? I have some ideas but I can offer this, our blue collar workers like our firefighters police and teachers are not the problem. They are barely making a living wage now IMO. Besides, what jobs are more important or absolutely necessary? The problem in my mind is the upper level government employees that are bringing home six figure incomes plus the benefits and retirement. You know the cronies that were appointed that have a job that defies description. For every one of those jobs you ax, you could hire two or three blue collar workers or put a serious dent in the deficit. There could be far fewer six figure guys in the lineup at every level of government. The issue there is they don't really need collective bargaining, they are the annoited ones. The blue collar guys could easily do the (easy lifting) management guys work. They have been doing it for years anyway.
Destroyer is right, it is a touchy subject.

[Destroyer]

RW and Ridge, I completely agree with both of you. There is give and take necessary on both sides. We are in a new, leaner, more competitive world, and we need to understand that there are countries out there that are actively trying to dethrone us as top dog. They do so with cheap labor, underhanded labor practices, lack of safety for their workers, etc etc etc.. but the bottom line is if we continue to support them by buying their products, then really, who do we have to blame but ourselves?
Lenin once said that the defination of a capitalist was a person that sells you the rope that you use to hang him. Point being that we need to be less greedy and get back to good old yankee horse trading. That's where we excel better than any other Country on this planet. It's our strength.
As far as the contracts with state workers goes, I would remind everyone that my own house is on the razors edge also. My wife works for the NJ state MVC (dmv), so we're on the same bubble. Ridge, if you look at what I said previously...quote "One a personal note though, I will say that when the public sector (union and non-union alike) gets better pensions and health care than the people that are actually paying for it (the taxpayers) then I think it's time to at the very least revisit everything". Unquote I was agreeing with you 100%. The non union people I was refering to were the fat cats at the top with the special pensions and the undefined jobs. Sacrafices should not come just on the backs of the rank and file... they need to start at the top and continue down to everyone, and it needs to be done fairly and without rancor. But we all need to realize that what we have right now, in a lot of States, is simply unsustainable. Changes must be made, and the sooner they are made the sooner we can get back to the business of making money for everyone's benefit.

[bradford]

Are those people getting paid to be there? If so, enjoy it while it lasts.
In order to keep the same premium on my bull crap health insurance plan that I pay 100% of, I had to double my yearly deductible to $10,000!

I've never had a claim. Ever. I haven't been to a doctor since my physical for high school sports.
Thank God I'm still fairly young and healthy.

I don't lose any sleep at night worrying about how the poor government workers will have to manage to pay any additional single percentage increase in their plans.

If they even end up having to.

We'll just bail them out.

[spareparts]

Bradford, I know what you are talking about, just for me and my two girls, I'm paying over $800 a month, Luckily my wife gets here insurance thru her company, if she didn't, I'd have to pay another $800 a month. For what the insurance companies have paid out for my wife and for my daughter, I'm getting a bargain. But it still hurts knowing my family's biggest single expense out of my pocket each month goes to health insurance, its more than all my utilities combined, or my house payment. being self employed, I don't have any choice. Oh, and on the subject of pension or retirement, my 401 sucks, my mutual fund isn't doing squat. The money in each of them came out of my pocket, no company contribution. So for all the peolpe that have these kind of benifits, that feel they are intitled to have them, keep complaining, you'll find you self in an unemployemnt line

[jeffmo]

bradford,no,everyone was on their own time.
and i sure won't ever be a rich man on a $36,000 a year salary.and if the bill here in ohio passes i'll be closer to $30,000 a year as a firefighter w/ 21 years in.
if whoever is in charge of doing so would pull this thread i would sure appreciate it.no sense in it causing bad feelings.
all respect to everyone who works.

[spareparts]

Jeff, no bad feelings, I anthing I posted ofended you, I apologize. I think a lot of us are just getting our frustrations out. None of us are where we were finacially a few years ago, now we are facing all kinds of changes to a system we were used to. We all have our opinions on the matter, all based on our personal experiances. So far, I don't see anything to far out of line in this discusion, its been educational for me to hear an opinion from the other side of the arguement. If this discusion were on some of the other sites I vist, it would be 40 pages long, with 39 pages being personal attacks. I have had some real bad experiances working with unions, the sitiuations I was in with them really highlighted the bad side. "Not my job description", and "you're working too fast, you're making us look bad" were the most common phrases I heard from them. I've seen where intentionally damaging equiptment so it wouldn't pass a saftey test, so the driver would be sent home with pay. I've seen tenure override common sense. I've seen teachers that have no business in a classroom take senoirty over teaches that were far better qualified. I've dealt with the UAW, City of LA workers. City of Seatle, Cleavland Public workers, the machinist union, longshoreman, and Detroit as a whole(was physcally threatened for my opinion there). I have not had any dealings with any Police or Fire Fighters unions, so I don't have anthing to base my opinions on them. I was watching TV last night and they had that show "Beyond Scared Straight", one of the inmates made a statement, "its all about responsibility and accountability". I think that says it all with regards to the situation our country is in right now,no one wants to take responsibility or accept accountability, union or not.