No more middle class???

[macojoe]

I was born poor and will die poor! I go up and down over the years but I always end up on the sh!t end of the stick!!
I have been on the up swing the last 2 years but I just started down hill again slow but sure!
But like blue says its what you make of it!

[THEFERMANATOR]

In my earlier posts I was not blaming obama solely, as there is MORE than enough blame to go around on BOTH sides of the fence. My point is though that with the o at the wheel of the bus, he has dropped it into double overdrive, floored it, and is gunning down everything that remains of the US, our values, and the constitution. I digress though as he is but a cog in the vehicle that is doing everything it can to collapse us.

Since healthcare was brought up, let me put some info out there for ya'll to ponder. 9 1/2 years ago I was in a SERIOUS car accident where the doctors told me at the hospital to say goodbye to my family when I was admitted as it would be my last chance to. Needless to say I survived, but am left in rough shape afterwards. My medical bills passed $100K in my first weekend there(admitted on a Friday night at 11:50PM), and after my first week had passed over $250K with the ICU bill. All and all my bills surpassed a million dollars after the year of surgeries, therapy, and recovery. I had full coverage auto ins(which in a no fault state isn't much really), and luckily I had just signed up for a cheap HMO at work through AETNA. IIRC I paid out about $5K out of my pocket in deductables and non covered items, and the insurance companies paid out about $60K to cover over a MILLION dollars in bills. There was still about $100K left that were put into liens in case I ever got a settlement(aint that great, the bill was paid but if I got money down the road magicall ythey were entitled to more money), which I believe my attorney settled for about $10K during litigation.

Now if seeing over a MILLION dollars in bills get settled for less than $100K doesn't get you riled up, then I don't know what will. What about those people that don't have insurance? They are stuck with that HUGE bill that will follow them forever. But those with insurance can get it all for pennies on the dollar. So do I think we need healthcare reform, HE!! YES! Do we need obamacare, FU$K NO! Even as bad a shape as I am in, even I don't want obamacare, OR any of his entitlement programs. I know I could be getting over a grand every month, and not have to do anything but sit on the couch and watch TV, but instead I go out and work through the pain, and make a few dollars here and there to get the bills paid until I can find a job that will actually accept an application from me without laughing when they hear about my injuries and restrictions.

This country is in bad shape when somebody like me who is actually hurt and probably should be on the government plan isn't(heck, I'm even part indian and have been told I'm a complete idiot because I'm not signed up to get money for that too). The government programs will do nothing but lead to millions more people everday deciding why work when I can get it for nothing. I say reform healthcare and make it affordable to have medical care. Why should an anesthesiologist's union(not even the dr, but his union) get $2300 everytime he puts somebody under anesthesia? Why should a pack of guaze in an O.R. cost you $800 just because it was brought in during surgery? It all goes back to overspending and fraud at the government level, as it is spilling over into other areas. And if you think nationalizing it, and giving the keys to the government to run will help anything. Then I'm afraid you are mistaken.

I am all for reform, but not limited to any category. I feel reform needs to be done over MANY areas. And it needs to start with AMERICA going back to AMERICAN values, morals, principles, and the CONSTISTUTION! Don't just point the finger at one side when there are some on BOTH sides who are guilty, AND some on both sides who are good. The big problems we face today can be traced back to DC, and the monster we have allowed it to become. The way to fix these problems though lies in the people, and MUST begin with the people.

[willy]

Ferm, well said my friend. And I respect the h@ll out of what you have done.
I believe very strongly that most of our biggest problems have been caused or aggravated by Washington.
As a follow up to what I said earlier, free market principles will do a lot for the costs of health care, but because of certain things the government has in the way prevent it from happening and one in particular has the costs of health care and many other things criminally thru the roof.
It is reform of our civil litigation laws, some politicians have tried to do it and have been lambasted by the democrats and the lame stream media. Some states have changed and restricted their laws and have seen a tremendous drop in litigation and costs but do to the federal laws have not been able to cut it as dramatically as it needs to be.
For doctors and medical practitioners, hospitals it is as much as 50% of their cost of doing buisness, both for insurance and for lawyer based edicts forced upon them by a civil court.
But just about every single one of these sh!theads that gets elected is a lawyer, and the insurance companies are big contributors to these lawyers so getting anything done has been buried by them.
The people know, the govt. knows, the lawyers all know, but when Congressman Ryan (rep) tried to bring it up as part of an alternative plan for health care reform the republicans were summarily dismissed by the democrats.
You see, the lawyer lobby, and the insurance lobby along with the unions are the some of the biggest contributors to the demo/socialist party.
Can you imagine what Tort Reform would do in this country to reduce costs on health care industry alone.
Forget about the costs on all of our industry, businesses of every kind.
Removing barriers from buyers being able to buy insurance from across state lines, allowing not for profit groups to set up group plans and be able to buy insurance and medicine from anywhere.
Low cost plans could be put together, catastrophic illness plans can be set up for those with existing illnesses to help all families with the major insurers, the government and the medical profession all contributing to make it happen for our people with some type of general small tax on everyone.
And by everyone I mean everyone. No more of this crap where now 50% of the people in this nation recieve more in benefits/entitlements from the federal government than they have paid in, where 50% of our population pays ZERO income tax.
Thats right, 50% of our population pays ZERO, income tax.
We all need to stand up and correct this path we are on and come up with free market, free people solutions to this and get this 800 lb vicious gorilla off our backs before it wakes up and realizes it can do whatever it feels like.

[Destroyer]

Damnit Willy... you just said what I was about to say in your last post. Well said my friend.

Websters says that naive is: Naive is a French loanword (adjective, form of naïf) indicating having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication. I don't know about the sophistication, because I consider myself very sophisticated. (After all, I drive a fancy, dancy Land Rover.) But I, like everyone else here, is naive in one thing or another. Hell, I'm 66 years old and I still don't understand women, so I'm naive in that subject. Point being that no one should take any offense if I say I think they are naive about a particular subject. It's not a slur or an insult, nor should it be looked at that way.

Lets talk for a second about RW's comment(s). Basically, he said that in a perfect society Universal Health Care is a good idea. And I find, after thinking it through, that he's correct and I'm the one that was naive. There's nothing wrong with wanting everyone in the world having equal, quality health care. Truthfully, it's the Christian thing to desire. And, while I'm not sure that it would take a world government to administer something like that, it's an idea that could be explored. So in that respect, and in that respect only, yes, it's a good idea.

The problem is, of course, there is no perfect society. Nor, for that matter, will there ever be one. As long as there is just one person somewhere in the world that is the least bit greedy, just the least bit power hungry, the idea is doomed to failure.

Tort reform is needed. There are people that will say that it's just a small percentage of the costs, but they are wrong. Fear of lawsuits drives everything in our nation now. Just look on the TV... you see ads by lawyers telling you to sue over second hand smoke, and all medications you took in your lifetime, asbestos related illness, accidents, toothpaste, (yes toothpaste) etc etc etc. You hear quick little blurbs on the radio telling you the legal things about car ads, etc. My point is the costs of defending yourself against lawsuits from greedy...yes, I said GREEDY lawyers that make 1/3 to 1/2 of whatever they win in a lawsuit are astronomical. Not only hospitals, but everyone and every company related to health care is burdened by this unnessary expense. So tort reform is first on the list of reforms.
Next, lets look at reforms about buying insurance across state lines. Right now you or your employer can only buy health insurance from companies allowed to operate in your state. So, even though you might be able to buy less costly insurance from a different company in another state you're prohibited from doing so by law. Change the laws... allow free market competition and see how fast the prices drop.
I can go on and on.. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are dozens of areas where real, effective cost savings can be made without sacraficing any quality of health care. We, as a group and as a nation, need to start demanding of our elected reps that they actually do something instead of just giving us lip service while they continue to take huge sums of money from drug, lawyer and insurance lobbys. If they don't, they don't get my vote. Nor should they get yours.

[RWilson2526]

Great dialogue guys...good information and opinions from all of you especially Willy , Destoyer and Ridgerunner....

Thanks for the compliments on the family and the boat Ridge.....you're right thats whats most important around here anyway!..

And Paul....dont think for a second you insulted me with the naive comment....you can certainly call me your friend as I do you and all the rest of you snaggers (as Willy likes to call ya!)....