No more middle class???

[RidgeRunner]

Nicely put Destroyer and Willy. There are only two distinct classes. The working class, comprised of anyone with a job, retired or those who by no fault of their own are without a job but looking, and the outta class who have found a way to work the system to their advantage. The redistrubution of wealth pisses me off and only serves to create generation after generation of the same outta class people sucking up my tax dollars. If you find yourself in this category without any skills or education, why would you give up the gravy train government handouts to climb aboard the working class bandwagon. For starters, you are already getting a better deal taking what the government is handing out than you would working a minimum wage job. If you don't think you are getting enough government help you can always have another child or three.(The system rewards you for that) Your employer may require a drug test, as mine does, so you would likely need to quit drinking and doing drugs to get hired in the first place, because you will be required to take responsibility for your actions and show up on time.(Basically becoming a contributing member of the Republic) Then after 10 years working dead end jobs and getting your EIC every year (That would be the refund of all that you paid in for the year in Income Taxes plus a bit of what I paid in for the year) you will aspire to earn enough money so that you can turn around and give roughly 10% (soon to be 15%) of your hard working money to the government (IRS) so they can dole it out to all those who are milking the system and have no intention of working (See Obama's Illegal Immigrant Kenyan Auntie Living in Massachussetts Government Housing and collecting a Social Security Check) To the libs in Mass, WTF? (Off track? Yes, Because politics in Mass are way the he// of track.)

The working class has some really rich guys, not all are poor like me. Some of those really rich guys were directly responsible for running GM and Chrysler into Bankruptcy. Yet others start corporations and hire workers to make things or offer services. I am in the same class. I choose to collaborate with the businessman that pays my wage. If I am lucky and work hard I too may become rich by moving up the ladder or starting my own business. That is why I vote Republican. "Republicans are for the rich" is a misguided concept. I hear it all the time from the liberal media. A poor man voting for a Democrat is the right thing to do because the Democrats will protect the working class. Horse Hockey! Democrats will keep the Entitlements coming and in doing so foster the lazy folks lifestyle. Republicans know how to get things done and because they like money they will use the money they have to create more by investing in business, investing in the future. What future is there with entitlements? By the way nearly all of our Congress are lawyers and most are millionaires Democrats and Republicans alike. The Dems talk big about taxing the rich at a much higher rate, it would directly affect their net worth so I ain't buying it. Lip service at best.

Obviously, nothing changes overnight. But my point is that handouts DO CREATE LAZY INDIVIDUALS. For the outta class to go to work at this point is inconceivable. We need jobs. We need to prop up the value of the dollar so that it will have more staying power and we need to drop crude off the CME. Nothing creates inflation like $100 +/barrel crude. Everything we consume (unless you live on a farm) gets to the final destination with fuel. And unless you are Ahmish, your farm uses tractors that run on fuel. Prohibit the shorting of the markets. Throw a few of the high profile, white collar types in jail for their counterproductive greed. Is Martha Stewart the only one that got caught with her hand in the cookie jar? Let's have an accounting of where every dollar really goes. Gut the government spending on foreign aid, consider military spending cuts. The pukeface liberal godless hippie Bill Maher claims we spend more on military spending than the next twelve countries combined. Is that really necessary? Where does all that money go? I mean are we still procuring hammers at $25/copy, $50 toilet seats? Take it all the way to the State and local government agencies. Every division of government has a budget, they spend every dime of their budget so they can get the same dollar amount or more when next years budget is passed. They never have to show a profit or justify their expenditures and that is why the government run programs will never be efficient. Hold them all accountable, right down to their pay which is outpacing the private sector.

To RWilson, great pics in your other thread BTW. Nice family you have there and above all else on this site, nice V. I kind of know what you are saying and I agree that people in politics are responsible from both sides of the isle but the European Democracy will cause our taxes to go up and with all the waste, I say NO WAY. Growing the government is not the answer. None of our current systems are efficient why would you assume new systems would be? I am not picking a fight, I respect your opinion.
We are all in the same boat, Pun Intended.

I am taxed at the highest level I am comfortable with now. Especially if you consider inflation / loss of retirement / 4 year wage freeze etc. If the government can't figure a way to make ends meet and leave me the he// alone I can assure you they will only get less in the future. I have been told by our great govt. to tighten the belt, so ordered. I have been told that retirement investments will come back (three times in my life now) BS! I am not panicked, I am trenched in with no trust in our financial system or hope for any change. I see another huge correction in the stock market soon. They called it wrong, the recession ain't over folks. The economy barely has a pulse.

In the words of Nancy Pelosi, "We aren't going to do anything until November when we have a new President." Nov- 2007 At the time I thought that odd because people were already hurting and we were already over a year into the recession, I mean what a time for party politics. In hindsight that was a step in the right direction in light of the taxpayer money that was wasted ramming Obamacare (Unconstitutional) down our throats and the fat cat bailouts that Bush started at the end of his presidency which Obama carried on. Pelosi should be hung as a traitor. The behind closed doors deals, introducing bills at 2:00 a.m., "We need to pass the bill so that everyone can see what's in it." Really Nancy, I may not be the only one that has tried to contact her on this site. Unless you are in her district, GOOD LUCK. Her constituents are fruits and nuts, last I knew HIV was still rampant in her district. HIV Positive = Not likely to obtain medical insurance, Obamacare fixes that. Coincidence?

Let's get back to some good old fashioned Parliamentary Procedure and let us have some Transparency that we were promised. Cut the pork barrel spending, amend the tax laws and close the loop holes. Make it harder to stay on welfare indefinitely.

If Obamacare IS NOT repealed or found Unconstitutional we will need to change a very old saying, "Nothing is certain in life except Death, Taxes and Obamacare."

Less National Lampoon and More Clear and Present Danger. That's all I got... Sorry if it offends, I am outta here and promise not to argue. Refute if you can rebut if you must...

[RidgeRunner]

Dammit Reel, I nearly forgot those pesky special interest groups. We have a few lobbying for our cause right now in the Lumber Business. You are correct. They have a lot of a$$ in Washington. BTW- Social Security and Medicare are not the same entitlement programs I was bashing. Those receiving those benefits had to pay their dues. It is the freeloaders that get under my skin. Wilson was typing as I was. No doubt we need REFORM. REFORM the whole damn thing. No argument here.

[macojoe]

I was born poor and will die poor! I go up and down over the years but I always end up on the sh!t end of the stick!!
I have been on the up swing the last 2 years but I just started down hill again slow but sure!
But like blue says its what you make of it!

[THEFERMANATOR]

In my earlier posts I was not blaming obama solely, as there is MORE than enough blame to go around on BOTH sides of the fence. My point is though that with the o at the wheel of the bus, he has dropped it into double overdrive, floored it, and is gunning down everything that remains of the US, our values, and the constitution. I digress though as he is but a cog in the vehicle that is doing everything it can to collapse us.

Since healthcare was brought up, let me put some info out there for ya'll to ponder. 9 1/2 years ago I was in a SERIOUS car accident where the doctors told me at the hospital to say goodbye to my family when I was admitted as it would be my last chance to. Needless to say I survived, but am left in rough shape afterwards. My medical bills passed $100K in my first weekend there(admitted on a Friday night at 11:50PM), and after my first week had passed over $250K with the ICU bill. All and all my bills surpassed a million dollars after the year of surgeries, therapy, and recovery. I had full coverage auto ins(which in a no fault state isn't much really), and luckily I had just signed up for a cheap HMO at work through AETNA. IIRC I paid out about $5K out of my pocket in deductables and non covered items, and the insurance companies paid out about $60K to cover over a MILLION dollars in bills. There was still about $100K left that were put into liens in case I ever got a settlement(aint that great, the bill was paid but if I got money down the road magicall ythey were entitled to more money), which I believe my attorney settled for about $10K during litigation.

Now if seeing over a MILLION dollars in bills get settled for less than $100K doesn't get you riled up, then I don't know what will. What about those people that don't have insurance? They are stuck with that HUGE bill that will follow them forever. But those with insurance can get it all for pennies on the dollar. So do I think we need healthcare reform, HE!! YES! Do we need obamacare, FU$K NO! Even as bad a shape as I am in, even I don't want obamacare, OR any of his entitlement programs. I know I could be getting over a grand every month, and not have to do anything but sit on the couch and watch TV, but instead I go out and work through the pain, and make a few dollars here and there to get the bills paid until I can find a job that will actually accept an application from me without laughing when they hear about my injuries and restrictions.

This country is in bad shape when somebody like me who is actually hurt and probably should be on the government plan isn't(heck, I'm even part indian and have been told I'm a complete idiot because I'm not signed up to get money for that too). The government programs will do nothing but lead to millions more people everday deciding why work when I can get it for nothing. I say reform healthcare and make it affordable to have medical care. Why should an anesthesiologist's union(not even the dr, but his union) get $2300 everytime he puts somebody under anesthesia? Why should a pack of guaze in an O.R. cost you $800 just because it was brought in during surgery? It all goes back to overspending and fraud at the government level, as it is spilling over into other areas. And if you think nationalizing it, and giving the keys to the government to run will help anything. Then I'm afraid you are mistaken.

I am all for reform, but not limited to any category. I feel reform needs to be done over MANY areas. And it needs to start with AMERICA going back to AMERICAN values, morals, principles, and the CONSTISTUTION! Don't just point the finger at one side when there are some on BOTH sides who are guilty, AND some on both sides who are good. The big problems we face today can be traced back to DC, and the monster we have allowed it to become. The way to fix these problems though lies in the people, and MUST begin with the people.

[willy]

Ferm, well said my friend. And I respect the h@ll out of what you have done.
I believe very strongly that most of our biggest problems have been caused or aggravated by Washington.
As a follow up to what I said earlier, free market principles will do a lot for the costs of health care, but because of certain things the government has in the way prevent it from happening and one in particular has the costs of health care and many other things criminally thru the roof.
It is reform of our civil litigation laws, some politicians have tried to do it and have been lambasted by the democrats and the lame stream media. Some states have changed and restricted their laws and have seen a tremendous drop in litigation and costs but do to the federal laws have not been able to cut it as dramatically as it needs to be.
For doctors and medical practitioners, hospitals it is as much as 50% of their cost of doing buisness, both for insurance and for lawyer based edicts forced upon them by a civil court.
But just about every single one of these sh!theads that gets elected is a lawyer, and the insurance companies are big contributors to these lawyers so getting anything done has been buried by them.
The people know, the govt. knows, the lawyers all know, but when Congressman Ryan (rep) tried to bring it up as part of an alternative plan for health care reform the republicans were summarily dismissed by the democrats.
You see, the lawyer lobby, and the insurance lobby along with the unions are the some of the biggest contributors to the demo/socialist party.
Can you imagine what Tort Reform would do in this country to reduce costs on health care industry alone.
Forget about the costs on all of our industry, businesses of every kind.
Removing barriers from buyers being able to buy insurance from across state lines, allowing not for profit groups to set up group plans and be able to buy insurance and medicine from anywhere.
Low cost plans could be put together, catastrophic illness plans can be set up for those with existing illnesses to help all families with the major insurers, the government and the medical profession all contributing to make it happen for our people with some type of general small tax on everyone.
And by everyone I mean everyone. No more of this crap where now 50% of the people in this nation recieve more in benefits/entitlements from the federal government than they have paid in, where 50% of our population pays ZERO income tax.
Thats right, 50% of our population pays ZERO, income tax.
We all need to stand up and correct this path we are on and come up with free market, free people solutions to this and get this 800 lb vicious gorilla off our backs before it wakes up and realizes it can do whatever it feels like.

[Destroyer]

Damnit Willy... you just said what I was about to say in your last post. Well said my friend.

Websters says that naive is: Naive is a French loanword (adjective, form of naïf) indicating having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication. I don't know about the sophistication, because I consider myself very sophisticated. (After all, I drive a fancy, dancy Land Rover.) But I, like everyone else here, is naive in one thing or another. Hell, I'm 66 years old and I still don't understand women, so I'm naive in that subject. Point being that no one should take any offense if I say I think they are naive about a particular subject. It's not a slur or an insult, nor should it be looked at that way.

Lets talk for a second about RW's comment(s). Basically, he said that in a perfect society Universal Health Care is a good idea. And I find, after thinking it through, that he's correct and I'm the one that was naive. There's nothing wrong with wanting everyone in the world having equal, quality health care. Truthfully, it's the Christian thing to desire. And, while I'm not sure that it would take a world government to administer something like that, it's an idea that could be explored. So in that respect, and in that respect only, yes, it's a good idea.

The problem is, of course, there is no perfect society. Nor, for that matter, will there ever be one. As long as there is just one person somewhere in the world that is the least bit greedy, just the least bit power hungry, the idea is doomed to failure.

Tort reform is needed. There are people that will say that it's just a small percentage of the costs, but they are wrong. Fear of lawsuits drives everything in our nation now. Just look on the TV... you see ads by lawyers telling you to sue over second hand smoke, and all medications you took in your lifetime, asbestos related illness, accidents, toothpaste, (yes toothpaste) etc etc etc. You hear quick little blurbs on the radio telling you the legal things about car ads, etc. My point is the costs of defending yourself against lawsuits from greedy...yes, I said GREEDY lawyers that make 1/3 to 1/2 of whatever they win in a lawsuit are astronomical. Not only hospitals, but everyone and every company related to health care is burdened by this unnessary expense. So tort reform is first on the list of reforms.
Next, lets look at reforms about buying insurance across state lines. Right now you or your employer can only buy health insurance from companies allowed to operate in your state. So, even though you might be able to buy less costly insurance from a different company in another state you're prohibited from doing so by law. Change the laws... allow free market competition and see how fast the prices drop.
I can go on and on.. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are dozens of areas where real, effective cost savings can be made without sacraficing any quality of health care. We, as a group and as a nation, need to start demanding of our elected reps that they actually do something instead of just giving us lip service while they continue to take huge sums of money from drug, lawyer and insurance lobbys. If they don't, they don't get my vote. Nor should they get yours.

[RWilson2526]

Great dialogue guys...good information and opinions from all of you especially Willy , Destoyer and Ridgerunner....

Thanks for the compliments on the family and the boat Ridge.....you're right thats whats most important around here anyway!..

And Paul....dont think for a second you insulted me with the naive comment....you can certainly call me your friend as I do you and all the rest of you snaggers (as Willy likes to call ya!)....