Considering buying a V20

[peiserma]

Thank you all very much for the advice and feedback. Especially to Macrenovations for taking the time to look up all that info.

After the compression test, the seller indicated I could come back and check the engine some more. I admitted that I wasn't sure what low compression numbers mean on an engine that has been idle for so long. I have the following plan, assuming the seller is OK with everything: get some new spark plugs. Not cheap, but worth the money to see if I can get the motor to run. Work some oil into the cylinders through the spark plug holes. Change motor oil in order to look at the oil fill plug (for shavings) and see if its oil or sludge in there. I like the suggestion of a portable gas tank. That way I do not have to mess with draining the old gas, and I can throw in a $5 bottle of fuel injector cleaner (the outboard is fuel injected). Oh, and I should probably drain the lower unit to make sure it has no water in it.

What else would you suggest? Assuming the engine ran two years ago and has no major problems, can I reasonably expect that I can get the engine running with the steps outlined above?

I'm not sure about a couple things. First, I assume its possible to hook up a garden hose to cool the engine? Is there a FAQ (with illustrations if possible) on this?

Second, is it possible to run this motor on a portable tank? That outboard is pretty big and, like automobile fuel-injected motors, is going to need a fuel pump. Is the fuel pump external to the tank? What size hose do I need?

And finally, can the motor be turned over by hand, to work the oil into the cylinders? How would one go about doing this? Is there a service manual for the Optimax available on-line?

Thanks so much the help so far.

[peiserma]

Just talked to the seller. He's OK with what I want to do. He is even getting a portable gas tank from a friend. Fuel pump is on the motor, so that question is answered. Still looking for advice on the other questions.

Thanks.

[Road King Cole]

Hi, welcome to the site. Make sure they have or you bring a well charged battery. Does he have a set of "muffs" for using the garden hose? Also, if you put oil in the cylinders, I wouldn't put the new plugs in until that oil has been blown out...

[RWilson2526]

Dont forget too that if he is premixing the oil in his fuel tank that you add some oil to the portable tank. If he is using on board oil tank than no worries.

[step up here]

the only way i would buy the boat with the information you give is to do a sea trail. starting any motor sounds good but the performance of a boat under a load and running at all speeds is a different situation.

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by peiserma

I have the following plan, assuming the seller is OK with everything: get some new spark plugs. Work some oil into the cylinders through the spark plug holes.

Good idea..

Change motor oil in order to look at the oil fill plug (for shavings) and see if its oil or sludge in there.

This is a 2 stroke engine...yes? If so there is no engine oil to change, other than the oil that's in the tanks ready to be pumped into the engine while the engine is running.. If he's running pre-mix than the portable tank will need to have the proper amount of 2 stroke oil mixed into it before you try to run the engine.

I like the suggestion of a portable gas tank. That way I do not have to mess with draining the old gas, and I can throw in a $5 bottle of fuel injector cleaner (the outboard is fuel injected).

Use Mercury injector cleaner. And I'd also highly recommend treating the fuel with Seafoam.

Oh, and I should probably drain the lower unit to make sure it has no water in it.

Absolutely a great idea... Look for metal shavings of any kind, as well as milky or cloudy oil.

What else would you suggest? Assuming the engine ran two years ago and has no major problems, can I reasonably expect that I can get the engine running with the steps outlined above?

Yes, however some things to keep in mind. Optimax engines require a marine starting battery with a mininum of 1000 Marine Cranking Amps. They are very power hungry while cranking because of the air and fuel injectors. And, while running, because of their huge power requirements, they don't start charging your battery(s) until about 2500 rpm. Below that they are drawing some power from the battery. Additionally, be sure that, when in neutral, the throttle cable is adjusted so that is holding the throttle arm up against the idle stop. The engine's computer is looking for a specific value from the throttle position sensor...and if the cable is not adjusted correctly this will trip an error code. (DON'T USE THE WARM UP LEVER OR THROTTLE ONLY FEATURE OF YOUR CONTROLS DURING STARTING).

I'm not sure about a couple things. First, I assume its possible to hook up a garden hose to cool the engine? Is there a FAQ (with illustrations if possible) on this?

Yes, use what are called engine muffs or mouse ears. Basically rubber disks that clamp around the bottom around the engine's water pick up holes and are attached to a garden hose. NEVER run an engine without water. You will destroy the rubber impeller inside your water pump in less than 10 seconds.

Second, is it possible to run this motor on a portable tank?

Yes.. in fact for your tests it's recommended so you can rule out possible old or bad fuel.

And finally, can the motor be turned over by hand, to work the oil into the cylinders? How would one go about doing this? Is there a service manual for the Optimax available on-line?

Yes, just turn the flywheel. It will probably be impossible or really, really hard to do with the plugs in, and since you want to work the oil into the cylinders and rings, it's advisable to have them all out... but it's so much easier to just use your engines' starter.. squirt the oil in and hit the starter switch for a few seconds to turn the engine over... let it sit for a few minutes..then do it again... you're done. Oh, and as a general rule of thumb, unless a service manual calls for it, never turn an engine backwards.. you can break things that are only designed to move in one direction.


Probably not on the service manual. They like to sell these things to make money. Look for Seloc or Clymers, or a genuine service manual from Mercury online in eBay. Usually they go for around $30-$50.


Hope that answered your questions, with a few comments thrown in for good measure. Red skys at night....

[peiserma]

Thanks for that wealth of information. Armed with that knowledge, I went back today and did all that was suggested. The lower unit oil looked great for having sat in there for two years. Not a hint of water. Engine was run off a portable tank.

But we were unsuccessful in starting the engine. I broke the top off of one of the new spark plugs, so we went with 5 brand new ones and picked the best-looking one of the old plugs. The engine turned over fine. The starboard side fuel rail had pressure, but the port side fuel rail did not. This particular engine has pressure-relief valves on the rail (they look almost exactly like the ones on your tires. They are called Shrader valves if I remember correctly ). The starboard side squirted fuel when we vented it, but there was nothing at all on the port side. Not even a hiss. That's how I know one side has pressure, the other doesn't :)

Where we left it was that the seller said he was going to try to tinker with it. He also said he was open to offers if I wanted to mess with it myself. I got the impression he really does not want to mess with it. He was riding with his significant other (as in motorcycles) before I got there tonight, so I got the impression his priorities may be different than when he was actively boating. Also, he has three boats sitting in his yard right now, and a fourth in the water. This particular boat is probably not on his short list.

So once again, I ask for your collective wisdom. Is this worth pursuing, or is it better to wait for something else? If its worth pursuing, how much would be a fair ballpark figure? I realize no one can give an exact answer without inspecting the boat, but i'm really just looking for a general estimate based on your personal experience. FWIW, the hull is an 87 cuddy, no weakspots that I found, solid transom (i put my full weight on the motor and made the boat bounce on the trailer). The back-to-back chairs on port side are shot and need replacing. Woodwork (I guess I have to get in the habit of calling it brightwork?) can be mostly reconditioned, but some of it will have to be rebuilt (I already have a table saw and a router and know how to use them). There are some minor dings and scratches in the gelcoat as one would expect, but it still looks pretty good. Oh, and recall that the seller has a the same engine, just counter-rotating, with a cracked block that could be used for spare parts if it were made part of any deal.

I have been looking for a used boat on and off for maybe 1.5 years, and I really like the V20s in general. More so than 90% of the other boats for sale out there. I do not have to own a boat right now (I can wait), but I surely miss being out on the water (used to sail my parents 30' Hunter before I moved too far away). Plus I have spare cash in my bank account right now (may not be true next year if my wife decides we need to redo the kitchen or replace the carpeting with wood floors). I consider myself pretty good mechanically, and can afford spending time tinkering with the engine. I'd actually consider that time well spent.

So your thoughts and opinion is appreciated. At what price does this boat become a deal, and at what price can I find a better value for my hard-earned cash?

Thank you!

[Destroyer]

Brightwork is all of the metal that needs to be ploished.. like turnbuckles, stancions, etc.

At what part does it become a deal? When he gives you a price that you like and that you know you can afford, including any work that may have to be done on the engine. I know that's not the answer you want, but it's about as true as you can get. Truthfully, a boat without a working engine is just a useless hull. Like a supermodel... pretty to look at but not very practical. IMHO

[RWilson2526]

Did you make any progress on the compression numbers?

Offer him $1500 and hope its just a fuel issue or something under 1K to fix. You do have the possibility to get a sweet deal if the guy just wants to unload it and you can get it running because of something simple. It is a 2000 motor which is considerably newer then than 80's original motors many V's for sale have on them.

I would think even if WORST case and the motor is not servicable you should be able to part out the motor and get something back from that and then find a used motor and put it on. Definitely a pain in the neck to do but financially if you can get the boat for $1500 or so you liability is limited.

On the flip side what part of the country are you in? There's at least 10 v's for sale within 100 miles of me here in NJ. are there fewer to choose from where you are?

[peiserma]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

At what part does it become a deal? When he gives you a price that you like and that you know you can afford, including any work that may have to be done on the engine.

You're right, its not what I was hoping for, but it did cause me to think about what it's worth to me. By attempting to do it myself, I'm essentially trading my time for my money (e.g. paying someone else to fix the motor). I'm also gambling that the motor is fixable for X amount - the exact dollar value at which this makes sense is what I'm trying to figure out.

For example, someone on this site (Willy maybe?) was asking $4500 for his V20. I'll use that as a starting point - I assume that I can find something similar with a working motor for $4500. Now what's a good estimate for a decent used outboard? I would guess $3000 at least, based on some limited time spent internet surfing. Now the value of package is $1500. But that doesn't account for the time and hassle required to install the replacement motor. I see little fairness paying the same total amount (having to repower vs working motor) because of the time and effort I'd have to do in repowering. That ought to be worth something (as in reduced price). And the boat still needs the back-to-back chair replaced. That can be bought for maybe $250? Again, the time and effort to install needs to be accounted for. This boat has no electronics, either (unlike Willy's). The trailer does have cash value, but I'm not planning on entering the used-trailer business, either.

Back to the motor. My first post showed the middle cylinder on the port side with 95psi compression. All the others were much, much lower. Also recall that I said the port side wasn't getting any fuel, while the starboard was. So one could hope for at least half the cylinders firing. The motor turned over, but no cylinder ever fired. As Genie Aye pointed out, the compression is too low to ignite the fuel. And therefore, instead of it being a question just of re-lubricating the rings and getting it to start like I was hoping, its looking more likely that a major or complete teardown of the motor is required. And all of a sudden, having to throw $1000 to $2000 into the motor doesn't seem so far-fetched. Never mind the amount of effort involved...

Based on the above line of thinking, $2000 is too much, and $1500 is on the high end of what it's worth to me. Feel free to point out errors or flaws in my thinking, since I've never owned my own boat and may be misrepresenting or not fully comprehending some of the costs.