still here!!!

[jeffmo]

haven't had too much free time lately.have been to our statehouse twice in the last 2 weeks politicing pretty hard.i'd bet you've quite possibly seen it on the news.like Wisconsin,our governor is trying to take away our collective bargaining rights and all he has managed to do so far is rile up every firefighter,police officer and all other union workers here in Ohio.if it happens it won't be worth it to be a firefighter here in Ohio.in fact,if his bill passes i will be a firefighter with 21 years of service and quite possibly be eligible for government assistance!
it's sad that we do the job we do and now have to fight to keep our rights.
a few pics,

the march included firefighters from all over Ohio and stretched for about a mile.



this is the columbus/dublin Ohio firefighter drum & pipes corp that led our march to the statehouse.



the crowd was estimated at over 5,000 people.our governor locked us out in an attempt to prevent us from attending the hearing.a call to the AG's office and the threat of a lawsuit got us in!

[Destroyer]

This is one area I won't step into, except to say that I won't step into it. There are points to be made for both sides of every story, and this one is no different.

One a personal note though, I will say that when the public sector (union and non-union alike) gets better pensions and health care than the people that are actually paying for it (the taxpayers) then I think it's time to at the very least revisit everything.

And having been on both sides of the negotiation table. let me also say that a contract is exactly that. A contract. It has set items in it, and if those items are met by both sides, then everyone is following the law and no one should be squawking...

But everyone also needs to remember that a labor contract has a set time limit to it...be it one year or 3 years or five or whatever.. once that time limit is done, ...once all provisions of that contract have been met... the contract is OVER. Period!! All items that were in it can legally be renegoatiated, dropped, raised or adjusted up or down or be modified. Either side can legally refuse to renegotiate with the opposing side until forced to do so by the courts.

In most contracts you'll usually find a clause that says something to the effect that all previous benefits of the previous contract are carried over into the new contract without renegotiation...but that clause is just there to make rewriting and renegotiating a new contract easier for the ones doing it.. it's NOT a piece of ironclad boilerplate. It can be removed by either party in a new contract negotiation. All items can legally be up on the table again.

As an example, lets say that the last contract gave workers 10 paid holidays per year. Normally that would be carried over into the new contract automatically with that aforementioned clause. But without that clause management can legally say they do not want to give 10 days for the new contract, they only offer 5. So now it's open to negotiation again. Every single items in a contract can be open to renegotiation, including salery, pensions, holidays, healthcare, etc. nothing is automatic, nothing is sacred, nothing is guarenteed. Just something to think about.

[jeffmo]

destroyer,good points.
i really don't know what'll happen in the end.basically our governor wants us to sit down to a rigged gameas far as what changes he wants in the collective bargaining law.
and yes,i don't want this to get off track either.just thought i'd post some pics that weren't on the national news.

[RWilson2526]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

One a personal note though, I will say that when the public sector (union and non-union alike) gets better pensions and health care than the people that are actually paying for it (the taxpayers) then I think it's time to at the very least revisit everything.

I think when we revisit this situation we need to also consider why is the private sector not getting what they used to. Nobody cared in the past how much these union workers were making when their 401K's were getting funded, and worked for big GE's and Westinghouse's and ATT's and had nice pensions. Those types of benefits are gone now due to foreign competition, regulations and whatever other reason and now instead of complaining about private sector problems we are going to turn on union workers and say why does he get more than me?

I understand that those days are gone of the big companies and pensions but the whole thing really smacks of a little of jealousy in my opinion.

I'm all for states having to balance their budgets and do what they have to do. Wisconsin definitetly had a sweet deal with something .5% contribution to their pensions and 0% to their health care. Thats a perfect argument and the one they should stick with. We dont have the money anymore. period. And additionally I dont know why I rarely hear it mentioned on the news but at least in Wisconsin they will still be able to collectively bargain on their salaries which I think is pretty big.

[RidgeRunner]

I am jealous. I don't have collective bargaining rights. My pay is less than it was in 2006. I am happy because I still have a job and a family that I love and cherish. I do not have a dog in the fight, this is my observation only... Used to be, any government job (city,county,state,federal) never paid that well but you could rely on job security and benefits. Nowdays, pay for government jobs are outpacing the private sector. Something will have to give in order to attempt to balance the budget at every level of government. The choices should not be made in haste. Where would I start? I have some ideas but I can offer this, our blue collar workers like our firefighters police and teachers are not the problem. They are barely making a living wage now IMO. Besides, what jobs are more important or absolutely necessary? The problem in my mind is the upper level government employees that are bringing home six figure incomes plus the benefits and retirement. You know the cronies that were appointed that have a job that defies description. For every one of those jobs you ax, you could hire two or three blue collar workers or put a serious dent in the deficit. There could be far fewer six figure guys in the lineup at every level of government. The issue there is they don't really need collective bargaining, they are the annoited ones. The blue collar guys could easily do the (easy lifting) management guys work. They have been doing it for years anyway.
Destroyer is right, it is a touchy subject.

[Destroyer]

RW and Ridge, I completely agree with both of you. There is give and take necessary on both sides. We are in a new, leaner, more competitive world, and we need to understand that there are countries out there that are actively trying to dethrone us as top dog. They do so with cheap labor, underhanded labor practices, lack of safety for their workers, etc etc etc.. but the bottom line is if we continue to support them by buying their products, then really, who do we have to blame but ourselves?
Lenin once said that the defination of a capitalist was a person that sells you the rope that you use to hang him. Point being that we need to be less greedy and get back to good old yankee horse trading. That's where we excel better than any other Country on this planet. It's our strength.
As far as the contracts with state workers goes, I would remind everyone that my own house is on the razors edge also. My wife works for the NJ state MVC (dmv), so we're on the same bubble. Ridge, if you look at what I said previously...quote "One a personal note though, I will say that when the public sector (union and non-union alike) gets better pensions and health care than the people that are actually paying for it (the taxpayers) then I think it's time to at the very least revisit everything". Unquote I was agreeing with you 100%. The non union people I was refering to were the fat cats at the top with the special pensions and the undefined jobs. Sacrafices should not come just on the backs of the rank and file... they need to start at the top and continue down to everyone, and it needs to be done fairly and without rancor. But we all need to realize that what we have right now, in a lot of States, is simply unsustainable. Changes must be made, and the sooner they are made the sooner we can get back to the business of making money for everyone's benefit.

[bradford]

Are those people getting paid to be there? If so, enjoy it while it lasts.
In order to keep the same premium on my bull crap health insurance plan that I pay 100% of, I had to double my yearly deductible to $10,000!

I've never had a claim. Ever. I haven't been to a doctor since my physical for high school sports.
Thank God I'm still fairly young and healthy.

I don't lose any sleep at night worrying about how the poor government workers will have to manage to pay any additional single percentage increase in their plans.

If they even end up having to.

We'll just bail them out.

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by jeffmo

haven't had too much free time lately.have been to our statehouse twice in the last 2 weeks politicing pretty hard.i'd bet you've quite possibly seen it on the news.like Wisconsin,our governor is trying to take away our collective bargaining rights and all he has managed to do so far is rile up every firefighter,police officer and all other union workers here in Ohio.if it happens it won't be worth it to be a firefighter here in Ohio.in fact,if his bill passes i will be a firefighter with 21 years of service and quite possibly be eligible for government assistance!
it's sad that we do the job we do and now have to fight to keep our rights.

Jeffmo, I know you are passionate about this subject, and I fully understand your position. But you need to know that you do not have collective bargaining rights. Anyone that tells you that is lying to you. You may have the ability to bargain collectively, but there is nothing in the law or in the Constitution of the United States that says you have the right to it. You need to understand the difference between a right and an ability.

Rights are things that are given to you by God and cannot be taken away from you by any man. For example, you have the right to life. You have the right to Liberty. You have the right to persue happiness. These are things that no man can legally take from you. You do not, however, have the right to collective bargaining. That is not given to you by God and it can be taken from you by man. See the difference?

I truly hope that all sides in these very difficult problems can work something out that is agreeable to all parties. Would you agree with me that perhaps this is not the best forum for this type of subject, since it is filled with emotions on all sides and can easily lead to bitterness amoung various people here?

Great pictures, thank you for sharing them. Truly, I hope things work out for you.

PS, Since I don't know, what is the significance of the number 5 with the slash through it that I see in several of the signs in the one picture? Just curious.

[jeffmo]

the bill that was introduced is senate bill 5.