need advice on used outboard purchase...
 

i am starting to look around for an outboard motor for my 1985 20' fisherman originally with a sea drive that has expired. i have a ton of experience with cars, but not much with boat motors, especially outboard motors. i have already found a flotation type bracket, so that is done.

from my research on this site, i am looking for a minimum of 150 hp to a max 0f 200 hp.

if i find a great deal on a 225, like the johnson motor posted in the classified section out of craigslist ... is it possible it can be used?

do i need to get all the steering, shift and throttle linkage or will the stuff i have work ... are all motors hydraulic steering and trim/tilt? what parts of the items i have in the boat can be re used if any?

what shoud i look for when looking at used outboards .. i see a lot about compression readings, etc. what are definite items i should be on the look out for.

i would like a dependable motor that i can work on myself rather than something i have to take to the dealer if there is a problem. i do not have enough experience to have develope a brand loyalty at this point. it looks like motors in the 1990 range - to mid nineties are available for a reasonable price. seen some yamahas, johnson, etc. i have read good things about the yamaha motors (2 stroke).

can you give me a crash course on what i need and what i should look for to do this project?

i know it is a tall order, but there is a lot of knowledge on this site!!!

thanks

Brad

Not having any prior knowledge about outboards, safest thing would be to buy a boat in running condition , use as many parts as possible and then sell or give away the unneeded hull.
Lots of times this is actually cheaper.

check compresion, check for spark, check the lower unit for metal in the gear lube. Stay away from motors that have been used in salt water if you can help it. Loop charged motors are prefered(stay away from older John Rudes). Be carefull of the weight(some Yamaha 2 stroke engines are heavier than you think). Stick with a carb motor, you don't need the complexity of efi or dfi. Run away from anything that has Ficht written on it. Be carefull of "rebuilt" engines, theres no telling whats been done. Check Craigs list around areas with large lakes, between last years drought, and this years high gas prices, you may be able to find a deal on a whole boat, pull the motor, than sell or trade teh boat off.

Its a salt water motor, but look for something like this
http://www.charlestonfishing.com/for...il.asp?id=5321

Everything spare said!!

Also 0n before 94 Yamaha had steel shift shafts that break and anything that old now that hasn't been fixed will soon! I have heard from $300 to as much as $1000 to replace them if needed!

Todays gas, I would stay 150 to 175 hp, most of the time they are the same motor just carb'ed different to get the extra HP.

I converted my V20 from a Sea Drive to a bracket w/ outboard. I believe if you get a Johnson or Evinrude your controls will work; otherwise, you will need new controls. By controls, I'm referring to the control box and throttle and shifter cable. Wiring is a different matter. I think you might be okay if you get a Johnson or Evinrude older than 95 or older. Otherwise, you will need a new harness.

Not all motors come with hydraulic steering, so look carefully if you want it. If you want to keep the steering you currently have, you will probably have to make a few adjustments to the hoses to make them connect to a steering cylinder. If your next motor doesn't come with the cylinder, you will need to find one if you want to keep the hydraulic steering. I ended up ditching mine and going with a No Feedback Steering kit. I like it.

For a V-20 my first choice would coincide BIGSHRIMPIN's, and that would be a 2.0L MERCURY 150HP. They were light weight at around 385 pounds, made EXCELLENT RELIABLE power, fairly easy to work, and probably the best on fuel economy of any of the old school 2 strokers. The 2.4L and 2.5L MERCS are still reliable and TORQUE out of this world, but they are also THIRSTY! YAMAHA makes a good outboard as well with the exception of the steel shift shaft. There are also alot of parts avaiable for them as they are pretty reliable and don't need many. I'm personally not a big YAMAHA fan as they never impressed me power wise in the ones I seen. I really like the SUZUKI, but in the size range your looking I would avoid them as all of ther V-6's weigh in from 450-470 pounds. And if you wanna go with a JOHNNY-RUDE, my reccomendation would actually be a 140 from 85-94. They don't have the low RPM grunt of a V6, but once they hit there power band hang on. There also pretty good on fuel and very reliable. Downfall being weight as they weigh in close to 400 pounds. If you want a V-6 JOHNNY-RUDE, I would go early looper in a 200/225 configuration. They actually use about the same amount of fuel at cruise as the 150/175's did. They weigh in in the mid to upper 400 pound range though, and I would avoid them for the same reason as the SUZUKI.

These would be my choices and why I would consider each, and I would also seriously consider the weight issue as it says you have a fisherman model which should be a center console. The center consoles don't make the bracket conversion as easily as the cuddy did due to center of blance in the hull.

Ferm, you are a pretty smart fellow


But I would disagree on only one point, Yamaha, I think that in the end even though they are a lower compression engine and do not put out the low end grunt of the Mercs they put out more than enough for just about any use short of around the pylon racing. What little they lose power wise they make up for many times over in outright reliability.
Now if I had your mechanical skills I would run mercs all day as I could fix just about anything that comes down the pike, but for an average joe blow like me the reliability and trouble free service far outweigh the slightly lower torque value.
As a second choice I would run JohnnyRude carbs and take the fuel hit for the longevity and durability factor.
The dozen or so friends of mine that have been very active boaters and very serious fisherman all their lives, men whose opinions I respect have had every motor there is, a few of them work on them themselves as they are skilled mechanics like you, but to a man they agree with the above statement. And to a man they have told me that for shear power it is tough to beat a Merc but have your wallet handy.

The 2.4L MERCS can get costly when something let's go in em, but the 2L's aren't as bad. They use a standard steel sleeve so they are not as expensive to rebuild, and electronics on them can be found easily and fit a wide range of years. YAMAHA's never really apealed to me as I remember being a kid and our 25HP SUZUKI flat out dusting a guy in a smaller boat with a 50HP YAMAHA. Not to mention all of the boats with YAMAHA's I rode in didn't seem to impress me with there grunt. They are solid, and 150/175's and quite a few of the 200's had good reputations for reliability and fuel economy.

excellent info, guys ... a few more questions ..

ferm .. when you say "early" what years are referring to?

i have been looking at a 1990 johnson 225 ... states less than 100 hr on rebuilt power head .. controls and harness included $1000

and also a 1992 yamaha 200 ... stated 200-300 hrs freshwater use no controls $1600

i was told my boat (85 fisherman 20) may only hold a 200 hp motor ..my boat capacity decal is gone

would the extra 25 hp of the johnson be a problem with a bracket?

would either be easier to install with my current old setup (sea drive) than the other?

both of these are near where i live .. the yamaha is real close.

what do ya think?

around here, the Yamahas are the most popular, thay have the percieved reputation of being more reliable. They generally cost more outright, usually packaged on more upscale boats, and are usually owned by people with more money and less mechanical ability. These people are more likely to have the shop do whatever it takes to make them run right and generally don't argue over price. They are serviced by the book with no skimping.( there are a lot of parraells here that can be referenced to certain brands of cars as well). The fact that these motors are generally serviced better has a lot to do with their reputation. I take nothing away form Yamaha, they build a very good engine. Depending on the hp and application, they usually rank either #1 or #2 in my choice of outboard power with Mercury. But they are not as good as a lot of people think they are, they break just like every other motor out there. Everyone tells me that Yamaha ignitions never give any trouble, you don't know how much time I've wasted diagnosing a rough running engine by ignoring ignition issues by believing they don't give any trouble. Ignitions are expensive!!!! for Yamahas, with virtualy no aftermarket replacement parts. Yamaha engines don't hold up to salt as well as Merc/John Rudes either. The paint they put on them holds up well, its where you cant see that they corrode(like most Japanese outboards). When we tear down a Yamaha lower unit, we allways get the torch out no matter how clean it looks. teh up side is that Yamaha complete new lower units cost about half as much as Mercurys. Every engine has its plus or minuses, consider the application, how its maintained, availabilty of parts and service, reputation, and resale when considering your purchase. Pay a professional thast familiar with that type of engine to check it out for you, its money well spent. If a good deal came up on a Yamaha, i wouldn't hesitate in buying one. Right now, I've got my eye on a 3.0L 225 carb Mercury that may end up on my V

bstekel, I have seen some people replace their seadrive engines, reusing the bracket part of the seadrive. I don't know which ones will swap(Skools is the Johnrude guy around here), but if the seadrive bracket part of your motor is in good working order(trim system, steering system, etc), it could save you some money on repower. I had a picture of a latemodel "Eagle" series Johnrude in place of an older seadrive powerplant, but I can't seem to find it. If there is anything questionable about the seadrive bracket part, skip the idea, as there is very little available for parts for them

what do you think about goin to a 225 ... price is right, but i was told that my max on my boat may be 200?????

The two Mercury outboards I have owned were trouble free, the best, most reliable 2 stroke motors I've ever had.......

The two OMC outboards I owned cost me $200 to fix every trip......

The Johnzuki I have now is even better than the Mercs, no oil to mess with......

:beer:

Bsteckle, this is just from my personal experience, if you have a bracket or are doing a bracket do not put the bigger motors on that boat. They will not sit right in the water, they will not give you any appreciable gain in performance. Brackets all ready provide you with a noticeable gain in performance.
Every V I rode in with a bracket and a heavy motor on the back sat to low in the water in the arse, that is dangerous, that is wet as the scuppers will be below the waterline or so close they might as well be. With a couple of guys and other weight in the boat it will get worse.
The other problem with that is you will be dunking your engine if you come off of plane to quick, or if you fish in anything resembling where I fish in inlets around points etc.
Find a 115 to 150 light weight two stroke, put it on her and it will fly with that bracket, it will ride real nice to with no porpoising and you will not be hearing any gurgling from your engine on the end of every wave set or big boat wake.
Your boat without the heavier cuddy up front will be especially prone to these issues.
Trust me the extra little top end you pick up is no where worth the danger and aggravation you will get with a heavy motor on the back end

all good info .. thanks

i am making a deal on a flotation type bracket to hopefully help with some of those issues..

but avoiding extra weight would be a plus ..

The issue of weight that WILLY mentioned was my reason for reccomending the 2.0L MERCURY as my #1 pick. They're fairly light for a V-6 and PLENTY of power. I'm not sure on the YAMAHA's weight, but I believe it to be in the low 400's and the JOHNNY-RUDE will be in the mid to upper 400's. The 200 and 225 weighed the same from 86 on up, so there isn't much difference between the two. WEIGHT is your enemy here though, you gotta keep the weight down. I know others here have center consoles with brackets and they all have problems with sitting stern low in the water. The LIGHT V-4 would actually be best for this app, but not greatest for top end. And this is why the 2.0L MERC was my number 1 pick, it is actually lighter than my 140 V-4.

Yeah, do a search for FLBuilder.....he redid a beautiful center console but had problems with it porposing because of the bracket.

I know I have seen several people on here moving gas tanks to the bow and relocating batteries trying to fix the problem on center consoles with brackets.

On the other hand, the cuddys seem to convert over just fine.

Spare has a great idea, hanging another motor onto the seadrive unit. I've seen them like that before also.

ok. ... now what years can i find a 2.0 mercury 150 ? are any years better than others?

1978 to around 2000. I would look for one from the late 80's that has the trim pump built in. The early ones use a remote mount pump for the trim and tilt. Nothing wrong with em, just prefer to have the leaner install of the later models. And the later models also came stock with the 40 amp charging system on them from around 88 on.

This one here would be high up on my reccomended list for your application. A 150 would probably be better, but the 135 is the same basic engine. This will give you an idea though of what to look for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem

Can you guys imagie how much easier life would have been for all of us if we had the computer and a site like this years ago when we were younger and were able to bounce stuff off a bunch of other fellows who had been there seen that and done it.
I was thinking about that this morning

As ususal Ferm is on the mark with the engine info, sounds like that older Merc would be a great candidate
Good luck with your search

can't thank you enough for all of the info ... as willy says .. this site is great. you have a way better chance of getting it right the first time... when i was younger with no family .. i could make those mistakes and it was not a big deal..

now with a wife and kids, i can't afford to spend un wisely .. also get tired of hearing about it :)

if anyone comes across a nice 2l 150 merc in the northeast area .. philly, nj, ny .. let me know .. i would be grateful.

Brad

Another thing to keep in mind is to get a bracket with the least amount of set-back as you can get away with as possible. I would think a 26" set-back would still allow you to trim the engine up and to help keep the center of balance further forward.

found a 87 merc 150 exlpto ... is this a 2.0 l that i am looking for?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Boat...em180245681009&

it is right were i am this weekend and would like to go look at it if it is the correct engine.

thanks

I wouldn't buy that onbe if it were for me. The first thing I didn't like about it was that the airbox for trhe carbs is missing. This is an almost sure sign of an engine that somebody has tried to up the HP on and re-jet, or if it hasn't been re-jetted it's beggin to get burned up. And secondly it only has a 16 amp charging system on it. And lastly the compression numbers don't look good on it. The general rule is 10% difference from highest to lowest, that engine has one at 110 and another at 135. that is more than 10% and an almost definate sign of an engine trhat has been re-sleeved and over bored on one or two cylinders. It also looks to be a 2.4L to me, but I'm not that good at identifying them from pictures. I use the airbox to tell the difference and this one doesn't have an airbox.

that should be a 2.0L. with those comp#'s i would pull the heads and inspect the cyl walls even before i thought about buying it. still 700 bucks if you know how to tool with merc i would buy it and put 700 bucks into for new internals and you basically have a very reliable engine.

I looked in the SIERRA MARINE catalog and it says it's an 86 150 according to the serial number, and it should be a 2.0L. Those compression numbers and the missing airbox are dead giveaways that somebody has been monkeying with the engine. It would make a ggod engine, but definately looks as though it will need work soon. I'll keep an eye out when I'm surfin to see if I can locate you a decent 2.0L outboard or at least a 2.0L powerhead. the 2.0L engines are pretty tough, and if left stock will run a long time. I have an 81 that needs new electronics, but other than that it is a solid engine that has never been rebuilt. The hard part is finding one in a 25" shaft as most of them were 20" shafts for bass boats.

i was thinking about driving over and looking at it ... it is at a local marina. what price is a deal that i cannot walk away from? not sure what these motors go for .. also not sure how easy they are to find .. lookd like it is missing prop and does not say if controls are with the motor.

i am afraid that the 200 hp fresh water yamaha (1992) i was looking at may be too heavy?

Ferm, was my two 90's 150 Black Maxs the type you are talking about, because they were the engines that constantly needed attention, mostly electronic and or power pacs and crushed me for years ?

In the 90's it could have been 2.0L's or 2.5L's. They offered both in 150HP from around 91+. The switch boxes can give some trouble, but aren't normally that bad. No worse than OMC's powerpacks. All of them pretty well used the same electronics though if they were carb motors. Normally when they give constant problems with the electronics like you describe, there is a problem somewhere else that is actually causing the problem. Many times a stator will fail constantly from a bad rectifier or battery, but thet stator will get replaced and the other actual problem overlooked and then it happens again and again. Or switch boxes fail from the wrong stator flywheel combo or a bad coil, yet the switchbox is continually blamed when it is actually working fine but getting burned out by another problem.

As for what this engine is worth, I wouldn't go to high on it. These engines do pop-up from time to time with better options on them for fair money. I believe RM sold a nice one last year for $3400 on Ebay that was a 2.0L 150 25" shaft.

is there much of a weight savings from this merc we are speaking of to the 1992 200hp yamaha that i was thinking of looking at?

what kind of $$ are we talking to upgrade the charging system on this motor?

what should the compression numbers be ideally on this motor (merc) ?

as always, thanks for the info .. it is priceless.

Think hard before doing a motor bigger than a 150 if you are doing a bracket. Don't rely on the flotation that comes with the bracket to make it work, it won't. It will mostly help offset the weight being extended 25-32 inches further back and will barely do that.

The MAJOR point to keep in mind here with a bracket conversion is running on plane. A flotation bracket will offset the balance when idling or off plane, but once your on plane that 350-400 pounds is hanging out there with nothing offsetting the balance. Trim tabs on a CC with a bracket should be mandatory I believe from what I have read on them. Unfortunately some of the lightest engine options are also some of the thirstiest. There are lighter outboards than the MERC 2.0L, but they guzzle fuel. The 92 200HP YAMAHA you are looking at should actually be the 2.6L(I think) YAMAHA which is the same basic engine from a 150-200. That was back in the day when YAMAHA got sued by OMC for patent infringement when they directly copied OMC's engines and sold them as YAMAHA's. The first YAMAHA V4 could almost interchange internal parts with an OMC V4, and many racers run the YAMAHA electronics on there OMC's as they are almost a match for each other.

The 92 200HP YAMAHA is 390 pounds according to ther NADA guide, so it would only be a couple pounds heavier than the MERC. It actually weighs the same as my 85 140 JOHNNY-RUDE I have, so it shouldn't be a major issue with weight on it.

I reccomend you read this thread as WHATKNOT just did a similiar conversion with a 150 YAMAHA(same weight as the 200 your eyeing).

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/communit...ead.php?t=9006

thanks for the info .. went to the marina and looked at the merc .. looks ok, was told that none of these engines have an air filter?? just an airbox which they say this one has. they ran it and it has a miss, also can hear it run on the ebay ad. stated they do not know what the miss is from .. could be as simple as a tune up or carb cleaning .. but to diagnose it, would be shop charge at $98 per hour. they have the motor for sale listed at $1800 but told me to make an offer of $1500 and that would probably take it. ebay auction is still at $710 with 3 days to go. maybe i will roll the dice and see what the auction brings.

As for the yamaha, the major flaw from what i can find out is the shift rod .. was told you can see if it is broken from the outside of the motor, but to fix it you have to take the power head off. upwards of a $1000 bill. how can i make sure this used yamaha i am eyeing up does not have shift rod problems?

keeping fingers crossed one of these motors will work out ,, if not.. the search continues.

Brad

yeah none of the outboards have aircleaners(except Opti's), offer them $1000 cash, pending a compresion test, spark test, and check the gear lube. If they don't have anythign to hide, they should take it

They list the compression numbers in there ad, and they didn't look good to me. low side 110 and high side 135. They don't have air filters, but the air box is an important item to leave on them if they are jetted stock. They resatrict the airflow just slightly t o control the metering circuits in the carbs, and if you remove it on a stock engine it will cause it to lean out and burn a piston and cause a miss or lock-up. I wouldn't offer him a $1000 for an engine with compression numbers like he posted it has, let alone if it has a miss.

On the YAMAHA all of em prior to 94 had a steel shift shaft and they are known to rot in two and then you can't shift them. The repair can range from around $250 for the shift rod and base gasket on up depending upon what else you have to do at the time of the repair. If the bolts that hold the powerhead on are seized in then the repair can get expensive and labor intensive.

If the 92 200 Yamaha was used in fresh water only, the shift rod has probably not corroded and it's not ready to break . It doesn't take alot of saltwater use to cause corrosion fast however. The 150, 175, and 200 Yamaha's are close to the same weight.

As far as reliability of early Yamaha V6's is concerned, they are about as simple and reliable as they get. The oil system is very simple and reliable. With the exception of the shift rod replacement, or power head removal (broken bolts) they are easy to work on. Rebuilding the water pump is very easy and I have been doing this repair for years. (about a 1.5 hr job)

I have had and still have Evinrude outboards and like them very much. However, I never owned an Evinrude or Johnson bigger than a three cylinder 70HP.

All in all, the Yamaha's I have owned have been the most reliable outboards by far. They are not the most fuel efficient, or fast, and they require regular preventive maintenance. But when I head out of the inlet to the open ocean, I am glad I have the Yamaha hung on my V's transom.

Geek

Brad, I know a guy who has a '91 jonny on his V20 Fisherman and says it does about 60mph. That's a little fast to me but a midrange RPM V-6 that old will get the same mileage as a 4cly. of the same year at top end. I just sold a boat that was slighly underpowered and I regretted that decision. If you don't mind a little more gas consumption get a low HP V-6, they just perform better. It is true that Yamahas are a bit more reliable, but Mercs have much more power and they use a great V-6 system of Optis. You sound like a faster kind of guy, and there is no problem considering EFIs. Like the Merc 2.5L's.

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