X-ray vision?
 

Hi All,

I have a fair sized list to starboard on my '89 cuddy. I bought it last year and the list was there when I bought it. I assumed that it was due to the batteries that are in the starboard locker by the transom but having moved my 200 pound a$$ back and forth I'm not so sure there isn't more weight on the starboard side that I haven't accounted for. I was planning on moving the batteries to the fish box amidships and probably still will but I can't help but think that I have some wet foam.

I don't want to cut up the deck so I'm wondering just how much access I will have to the suspect foam through the fuel tank cover. I know I can get to some of it through the rod box but I assume I will need more access than that. So my question is if I remove the (poly) fuel tank is there a bulkhead aft of it as marked in the photo and more importantly where are the stringers in relation to the fuel tank and how high up do they go. I'm assuming the suspect foam is in the areas marked A and B in the photo but am not sure. Will I be able to reach those areas with the fuel tank removed or will a stringer and/or bulkhead block my access?

Thanks as always,
John


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Should be stringers and bulkhead where you have them marked, your fuel tank hatch looks a lot smaller than mine though. Mine goes all the way back to the splash well and is more rectangular. I would try everything included living with it before I cut a perfectly good deck. Always seems to open a can of worms. Just my opinion, not any kind of expert.

jvitiel

Yes, there is a bulkhead forward and aft in the fuel tank area. There is more up room up front than there is back back aft if you look at the fuel tank compartment from above. The stringers/fuel tank area - side walls go all the way up to the floor. Access from the Stbd Rod box provides more sight to the foam than from inside the fuel tank area if I remember correctly.

Have you thought about adding a access hatch under the port live well? If you pull the Port rod box you can see the plywood tray already in place when you look back there similar to what on the Stbd side already ( at least in mine there is) I need to verify clearance, but by eye it looked to me like a could get a battery in there assuming there is enough separation in height between the deck and the bottom of the live well to cut in a hatch with sufficient height for a battery ( if you use a AGM battery you can turn it on its side reducing access clearance even more). At least this would separate the battery weight so its not all on one side. while maintain the fish box, a requirement in mine :-)


Kamikaze
Kamikaze

Thanks guys. Sad to hear that the stringers are full height. I doubt that I will be able to do much foam removal from just the rod box access.

Pretty good idea K - I thought about cutting access under the port livewell but for tackle/storage, not battery balancing. I kind of like using the fishbox up front for storage so this might be a better option (plus shorter cables - yea!). From memory I agree that there is probably sufficient height in there.

Thinking about it some more, I'm thinking I'm pretty screwed on loosing the list save cutting the deck which is not gonna happen. I can barely straighten it out by sitting on the port livewell and I'm almost 200 lbs. Moving a 50 lb battery from one side to the other is only a 100 lb shift. Moving two batteries to the centerline as originally planned is no better left to right (although the weight would now be forward which is a plus).

my v has the fuel tank in the front compartment. my middle comp. is storage and back is a fish box or live-well. was thinking of putting my batteries in my storage compartment just behind the fuel tank.

jvitiel, Nice rig, very clean V, wish mine was as clean.
You can test the foam from inside the rod box opening with the box removed, if you don't see wet foam you can cut a core sample with a spade bit. Very carefully drill down into the foam from the rod box opening. If you find wet foam, tear it out. If not, seal the hole with new foam and/or sealant.

Maybe more important while you're in there, check to see that your rod holders drain to bilge or deck also. I don't see covers on them.

There is room in the aft port hatch for a battery. It can be placed without any cutting, by removing the bin inside the hatch and reaching down. Get a tray or box and fix to shelf you find inside. If there isn't a shelf you can glass a plywood shelf or use starboard. All install work can be done from above. Adding a hatch makes the work a bit easier, adds access and isn't too expensive, about $35 on ebay.
I'd move a battery there .

Good luck,
Tom

its interesting seeing the different configurations of theses hulls. My 84 cuddy has a much larger fuel tank hatch further aft and the in-deck storage (fishbox) is further aft. I have a battery compartment centerline under the motorwell.
and no foam except the fuel tank compartment.

I'm surprised to see the amount of inaccessible unused space aft of your fuel tank. Is there foam in there too? you would think they would have put a livewell there(between tank and motor) like the center consoles have.

Mines like yours skunk, layout and foam-wise. I had a large blank area right out of the cabin door, where I added a in deck hatch to access storage below. I'd be very surprised if you had enough water to affect trim. Before I cut up deck, I'd put a small inspection plate where the A is in your picture.

Hmmm... As I recall, when I redid my soft deck on my V21 I pulled out (about) 3 1/2 40 gallon garbage cans of saturated foam. Now, I'm not suggesting that each can was exactly 40 gallons of water, but if even half of each can was actual water that would still be about 70 gallons of water total... and at 6.34 lbs. per gallon that equals roughly 450 lbs. I stress that this was evenly distributed in all the foam under my deck, not just one side, so I had no real listing problem, but I can attest that when the job was done the boat got up on plane a little faster and just seems to handle better when moving along.

I guess my point is that half of that 450 lbs was on one side of my centerline, so roughly 225 lbs. I agree that shouldn't make for a pronounced list, but it would effect list by about the same as a full grown adult male on that side would.

Hmmmm... As I recall water is approx 8.4 lbs per gallon, so your point is even more valid

Yep. 8.34 lbs to be exact. You are 100% correct, and I must admit to poor vision and making typos... That 6.34 I quoted should have been 8.34. Ahhh... the joys of growing older..... :you:

That being said, add another 70 lbs (2 lbs x 70 total = 140, then divide that by 2 (half on each side of the centerline) = 70 lbs) more to the 225 already there and you get 295 lbs extra on one side of the boat. Might be enough to cause a noticeable list. Since we haven't seen any pics of the list it's hard to tell exactly what we are dealing with in this case.

But here's the one thing we all know.

Foam, even closed cell foam like the type used in boats, when constantly exposed to water will eventually get saturated, loose it's buoyancy, and add weight to the boat. Sometimes by hundreds of lbs. Additionally, it's insidious because it gradually happens over time, not suddenly, so it's hard to notice. This is the main reason to keep the bilge area and all below deck compartments as dry as possible at all times. Seal cracks, put caps on rod holders, etc etc,. In short, do everything in your power to keep the below decks area DRY!!! (Oh, it also will extend the life of the wooden stringers and the underdeck flooring too).

8 pounds/gallon of water....pint is a pound the world around

Does it list at rest with nobody in it?
How far above the waterline are the deck drains, equal on both sides?

Ok, so here is a mini update. Thank you for all of your insightful comments..

The area marked "C" in the photo is wide open - no foam. There is indeed a bulkhead aft of the tank and a full height stringer between (at least) "B" and "C".

Nearest I can tell, there is about 4" between the deck and the hull where the rod box is. I'm thinking that I will go in there and attack the exposed foam with a mason's trowel and/or garden claw and see what I see. If I can't get far maybe I will use a long auger bit straight through the deck to get a deep core sample.

I would love suggestions as to what process or tool would be good for pulling the foam out through the gap by the rod box. If the foam was a little less dense, I feel like I could almost pull it out with my hand (but I doubt it). They should have used closed cell shipping peanuts. :-)

As an aside, a marine surveyor stopped by today for an unrelated issue and he didn't think the lopsided batteries were weighty enough to cause the list I described. He said maybe live with it but at lease know what it is...

The list is there both at rest and while running. It is such that the port chine is at water level and the stbd chine is maybe 3.5" to 4" under water. If I sit on the port hatch I can get it to a little less than level.

The deck drains are mounted at the same height on each side of the hull but the stbd one is at water level when in the water and at rest. I assume, but don't know if there is a leak in that plumbing - another thing to check..

The forward rod holders drain into the cockpit but the aft ones drain onto the foam on both sides. I don't have covers for them. The boat now lives under a carport next to my house so thats a non issue going forward but I don't know its storage/exposure history.

The hull strake on the stbd side has been repaired. It looks like it kissed the ramp at some point. It appears to have been well sealed with a hard, semi clear epoxy of some sort although I haven't inspected it closely. That may be the old (or ongoing) culprit - TBD

:head::head:Take the helm pedestal seat off the post. down in the post there is probably a hole in the deck where you can get at the foam. dig out some foam , on trailer--- tilt bow down for a day and see if hole fills with water

Excellent suggestion! There is no hole under the pedestal but there soon will be. Do you think the moisture in wet foam will migrate? I hadn't considered that.

As far as your rod holders go, go to home depot, plumbing dept. and buy as many 1 1/2" rubber pipe caps as you need. They come with a stainless pipe clamp but truthfully the fit is so snug that it's almost not needed... but use it anyways. Remove your rod holders or the rod boxes on the gunnels and put the caps over the bottom of the rod holders, thus sealing them off from any water getting into the boat from that source. If/when they fill up just use a turkey baster (steal your wife's or go to Dollar store) to remove the water. Cheap, fast KISS solution to the problem.

Two things,

If you keep your boat under cover don't sweat the rod holders, a turkey baster, really? If you plug them up it's no biggie to put in a drain line from the bottom of the holders running to the bilge.

The other is like many of you, I'm still amazed at the different layouts of these boats. I have an '83 and an 87, both have identical decks, big tank in the rear, long box in front, but nothing in front of that. They do have differences, the rod boxes are very different, and the '83 has a wooden door on the transom, my '87 has plexy.

Ok, rainy day so I decided to poke around. I probed the foam in the three compartments on the stbd side and all I could really get at was the stuff down to the chine. It all seemed fine. There was very slight moisture at the bottom of the foam in the forward most compartment (forward of the bulkhead in front of the gas tank) but still it was really just moisture on my finger from between the hull and the foam, not wet foam.

I guess I'm going to drill through the deck to see how the deeper foam is. Will start under the pedestal seat as Skunk suggested and then move to the more exposed compartments. As much as I would like to use a 7/8" auger bit to get a good sample, I'm thinking about a 1/2" bit through the deck and then a long 3/8" bit down into the foam.

I also looked at placing one battery in the port transom locker and that seems problematic. The bait well is glassed in and I don't want to destroy it. Cutting a hatch in the front face of the locker is also problematic as there is very tight clearance and the drop to the tray below the deck would make dealing with the battery difficult. It was a great idea but I think I will stick with moving them to the forward fish box if it comes to that.


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And here is a photo that I saw mounted on the wall at Louie's Oyster Bar in Port Washington Long Island. Thought it was neat...

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awsesome pic!!!

Agreed! That is too cool!

So I clawed out a fair amount of the foam via the rod box. Except for maybe a 1/4 cup of wet foam (by an inside crack under the damaged strake) it was dry. I cut a hole under the helm pedestal and it was dry too. Can't think of any other phantom weights so I'm gonna try moving the batteries forward as was the original plan. The cable run is 14' for three conductors (the selector switch will stay by the transom). Gonna use 1/0.

I'm torn on battery trays vs boxes. There's not going to be much activity in their new home so terminal covers should be fine for shorts/sparks. The Internet says that boxes are good if a battery cracks and spills acid. Realistically how often does that happen? This is two group 24 batteries mounted amidship with a 57 year old pilot - this isn't the x-games. Not sure I want to deal with the PIA of boxes for something that is unlikely to happen. Thoughts?

BTW, thanks for the tip on the rod holder caps D. - Home Depot is just down the block..



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The batteries new home - approximately where the ammo boxes are...

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Seat base question
 

jvitiel

When you pulled the seats did they use wood screws or bolts to an aluminum plate under the deck?

Thanks
Kamikaze

Machine screws and washers/nuts. The nuts spun as soon as I tried to loosen the screws so I had to drill the heads out. I rotated the pedestal about 20 degrees and reinstalled with wood screws. Seems plenty strong although I may change to togglers if I decide stick with the pedestal long term.

You need to seal the raw wood edge where u drilled out the plug under the seat, if not you can really get a good look at the foam when u recore the deck

You're most welcome. Happy to have been of some help.

Ok so I want to update this thread for future posterity :-)

I never found any wet foam or wood so I decided to move the batteries. My main goal was to get weight off of the starboard side in general so I didn't put much thought into the benefits of moving them forward too. It helped a lot. Now it's much easier to get the bow down low - just a bit of tab. I can also trim the motor out further now which helps get rid of the steering pull I get when it's tucked in.

Moving the batteries didn't entirely eliminate the stbrd list. I wanted that gone so I stuck a 60lb bag of tube sand behind the port rod box. It sits perfectly now and I don't notice the extra weight.

I guess when I assumed that there was wet foam on the stbrd side I didn't consider the combined weight of the steering, helm, gauges, swim platform and trim tab pump. That's all on the stbrd side while the port side is clean. Upon reflection all that could easily add up to the 60 lbs in the sand tube so it looks like the wet foam concern was really a myth all along.

I was originally going to run the three battery cables behind the stbrd rod box. When I got them they were 28lbs! I wasn't going to put that weight back on the stbrd side after all this so I put them across the gas tank. That straighter path meant that I had enough slack in the 14; cables to mount the batteries to the front of my fish box vs the rear as was my original plan. That worked out well too...

Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions. I really appreciate it.

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Yeah, all the little things can add up.

Sounds to me like you just need a girl with some meat on her bones to ride shotgun.

LOL...

What I really need is less meat on my bones ! :-)