many questions about repairing/replacing stringers
 

Me and my buddy just picked up a 1988 V20 with a 225 Yamaha for close to nothing. When we drove 1000 miles to get her we were not surprised to find a soft sole around the t-top mounts. A surveyor on site gave the transom a thumbs up.

We spent this weekend stripping the center console, electronics, t-top and all hardware off...and will begin cutting the floor this week. Doing some knocking the stringers has me concerned but I"m very untrained on this topic. I know the sound of a good "ping" for testing transoms but hear quite a bit of "thud" on the stringers and a few spots seem delaminated when pressed on. I'm sure they will need repaired/replaced.

As we being to cut the sole I'll include many photos so you guys can assist but for now I'll just include a few links to galleries of the pre purchase and what we have seen to this point.

Here are my questions:

1) I did a quick drill of the stringer about 5 inches from the transom and 1-2 inches up from hull...seems to be no wood in there!!?!? Furthur up yes. Is this by design or should wood be butted to transom and floor in all areas before glassing?

2) I see on so many writeups/photos that many guys just cut the tops of the stringers and extract the wood. I've read about roto-tools and such but does this save any time/money? or just used as a guide/holder for the new stringer wood?

3) if the glass sides are left and wood extracted is it easy to lay the new wood down in there...shouldn't the wood be resined to the new glass or can there be air space...very confused by this technicque?

4) Do most of you take the whole stringer out or only the soft parts (keep cutting till you find good wood)? Do you have to "toe in" the new wood if you only take a part out?

I've done a lot of reading over the last two weeks and many many youtube videos but still have so many questions!

Here are photos of the pre purchase: http://www.carboncow.net/Other/Boats...-V20-Steplift/

Here are photos of where I'm at this weekend: http://www.carboncow.net/Other/Boats...ration-Photos/

I'll embed photos into the thread as we start cutting the sole this week. For now I have the image of the tank out. No foam. It's very strange that the tank has a hatch but cannot fit thru the hatch...we still had to cut the lip off the hatch hole. to get it out...lifted right out.



On another note I love these hulls...always wanted one but it's very interesting to see where builders cut corners and some of the questionable techniques. I can see why there are so many opinions on these boats on iboats.com and other forums! The part that really blows my mind is that 100% of everything added after the build by previous owners/dealers has no protection in cuts and screw holes...and so much bad wood because of it. Even a few of the original build cuts are questionable about sealing.

Was build quality better in the earlier boats, mid years or last years?

welcome, nice find, looks like your getting a good start. friend just cut the tops off of the stringers, layed in new wood, poured in fresh resin &glassed the tops. working well so far.

as far as better years, i think it depends on the day it was built more that the year. the worst thing wellcraft did was not seal the drain holes where the stringeres meet the transom

good luck

I don't even think I saw any drain wholes where where the stringer meets the transom...I'll have to look again. What builder doesn't seal whole!?!?! But I digress...

So are most guys having to router out the wood or does it often pull out from delimitating from the glass?

Or is it best to just cut out that which is soft only? My guess is it's most likely to be soft on the bottom so if we cut the tops and it looks hard it may still be soft at the bottom, correct?

Yep, if not for that, the stringers would last a lot longer than they do.

cc, go to the v-20 gallery, page 3, bottom middle, vic's v20. he is the one i am talking about. he never used the seacast, went with wood.

OK, we started to cut the sole out today...several photos and a few questions...

We are going about 2 inches off the entire perimeter of where the sole meets the inner gunwhale. I found a couple areas of rot that still exist in that last inch or so all the way to the where it turns into the glass of the wall. Are we OK to dry these areas, dig out anything that wants to come and fill that with a bondo type product? Again this only a 2 or 3 areas of a few inches at best.

If any areas are wet but not rotted are we OK to just get them dry and move forward? I'm talking about small areas (several inches at most) in corners or areas we'd prefer not to cut much more.

See Image A and Image B

On Image C you'll see much of the sole out showing the foam inside. This foam appears to be in good shape. It's hard, 98% dry, solid to walk on even and no smell. Can we salvage this and just cut out enough to glass in new stringers?

See Image C

OK...we drilled more holes and the stringers are shot inside....what is coming out on the bit looks like compost! Best I can tell at this point is from the transom all the way to the gas tank well is bad. Can we just take the bad area and leave any good wood ahead of gas tank area...or do most of you cut it all out and start over? Are we going to find real solid wood in the stringers or is going to be plywood...it's so think and tall...my buddy things the later!

How do any of you feel about abover putting the new floor over the old floor and having a few inches of overlap? Seal all edges of the new floor, glass the new to the old with a channel running around the permitter and then using firing strips (or similar) to place on top of the bulk heads so the floor rests on those for support?

Does anyone every screw the floor into the bulkheads to reduce noise? Seems silly that "bondo" like stuff they used to attach the floor to the bulkheads.

I would remove all the foam,it may seem dry but will likely be wet at the bottom against the hull. Looking at you pic i would cut the deck back a little further at the rear to eliminate more of the wet wood that is still around the edges,then fill and seal edges with thickened epoxy or vinylester.(don't use bondo in the marine enviroment).
I would not put any foam back in personally,not good with wood cored stringers.
Keep testing the stringers moving forward until you find good wood,mine were rotten all the way to the cuddy,then sister in at that point.
As far as the sole i would start fresh and not overlay the old deck,way too much uneccessary weight somewhere for moisture to get trapped.
Definitely add limber holes at the back of the stringers.
I am in process of doing the same as you on my 73,i need to update my thread but it is not easy taking pics when your hands are stuck together with resin,lol.

Laim,

more questions...

1. What did you use to cut your deck? We used a circular saw that cut like butter but can only get an inch or so to the wall...the zip saw is not as fun.

2. Could you expend on the "more weight" and "trap moisture" comment, I guess I'm not seeing/understand that (but I am listening!).

3. How do you suggest the foam comes out? I think I read a guys post on using a chain saw and my buddy is a chain saw master. So do we think the foam adds to the shortness of life of stringers due holding the moisture in the area?

4. Do you suggest trying to salvage the fiberglass from the stringers as much as posible and just insert more wood?

5. What kind of wood are using for the stringers? Based on their height we are expecting to find plywood in there too!

Stringers
 

I am doing the same project now.

I cut out my deck, removed the fuel tank and foam. Cut the tops of the stringers and bulkheads and was planning on using Seacast or Arjay to fill the void.

What I decided to do is pick up three sheets of 3/4" A/C plywood. Cost all the wood with polyester resin. Install the 3/4" stringers back into the stringer cavity.

What I found - the stringers were made with a piece of lumber (not plywood) the bulkheads are made with plywood and are much more difficult to get the wood out.

I will be glassing over using 1708 and chop strand with at least four layers.

I was able to consult with a boat builder and he said the plywood material I am putting in is just to fill the void. The 1708 and chopped strand will be the new structural stringer.

After this is complete, I will drop my 3/4" plywood floor. I thought about using a composite but by the time I have to re-do the floor it should be many years....

My floor will be laminated with two coats of chopped strand.

I will post photos soon...

Thanks and great info.

To be clear...my question about putting the sole on top of the old sole is based on my photos. As you aw I have only 2-3 inches around that permitter and we were considering putting that on top overly lapping about 1-1.5 inches. This would have a water channel all around the permitter.

Were you talking that I would pick of voids this way...or were thinking I was laying the new sole over an old/wet one?

See my questions up in the body of the text...

Dan,

Any to be clear...you are doing your stringers in 3/4" plywood? Marine grade or standard? We've been getting mixed info on this but we seem to believe if the plywood is heavily resin'd then it doesn't need to be marine.

Will your stringer needs be greater then the length of plywood (assuming 8ft) and if so doesn't it matter how they "butt" to the next piece?

thanks.

Guys...I need input on "how much" 1708 to buy.

We may need todo two stringers up to 10+ feet long and the sole as you see. We can do the math I'm sure but how many yards are we talking?

Seems it's in 50" width and I'm seeing 48 yards for about $290.

Thoughts?

Hey sorry i misinterpreted what you where saying with the deck,you will be fine using the perimiter to attatch,i am doing the same.
I have saddle tanks so am raising the tanks 3/4 inch to allow for the overlap.
I am only using one layer of 1708 on the stringers,50 inch will do both my stringers,tabbed in with 6 inch 1708 tape and CSM in the tight corners.
I suspect your stringers are taller than mine though so you may need to use one length of 38 inch per stringer.
For the deck i plan to use one layer of 1.5 oz CSM on the underside then one layer of 1708 with a layer of 3/4 oz CSM on the topside.Thats with 1/2 inch ply.
My stringers are longer than 8 feet, as the stringer is made from 2 pieces of 3/4 ply i just cut one piece 12 inches shorter and do the reverse on the next section of stringer,glue with resin and stainless screws,then one sheet of 1708 over the whole stringer.

Liam,

Glad to think average minds think alike...

comments in body of the text.

Again, this is great stuff. Thanks for letting me parse your comments as I learn this. I got a buddy who is off the charts handy with this stuff but green with glass but I like to understand everyone process to feed him the intel so we do our boat right and safe the first time.

CSM stands for "chopped strand mat"
As far as one layer,1708 is actually 2 layers it is one layer of 45 degree woven fabric with a layer of CSM stiched to the back of it. Providing you don't use polyester resin 1708 is extremely strong and waterproof.
The deck will be screwed to the stringers and bulkheads,there will also be a layer of thickened resin on top of the stringers/bulkheads to allow for any undulations. The stringers will be screwed at the overlap permanently,when i glued the two layers of stringer together i put resin between the two and screwed and clamped them until the resin had set then removed the screws.

Glass tape saves cutting as you mentioned and is used for tabbing in.

Your stringers are taller because you have a later boat that has a self bailing deck ,the deck was raised to be above the water line and they increased the cap height to allow for the loss in freeboard.

Excellent posts!

Going to keep bugging you!

1. Why not poly...which one sticks better to the old glass too?
2. I'm trying to get a grasp on how many yards of 50" 1708. How much did you buy/use...or did I miss that somewhere?

We found one vendor selling a roll of 48" yard very reasonably but that seems like a lot if only doing one layer on the stringers and two on the deck. We'll take some measurements this weekend on the boat to come up with our theory of quantity.

3. How much resin would you also recommend based on my photo and if we had todo two tall stringers front to back. My buddy thinks 3 would due but I'm always the pessimist and think 5 is the safe thing.

I've seen the mention of "peanut butter" before...where did you primarily use it on your build?

Does cabosoil only mix with the vinylester or does it mix with resin too?

OK, looks likes the cabot mixes with resin fine.

EDITED:

1. We are going to buy from UScomposites. Their resin comes in thin and thick...but there is some warning about the thick not being idea for getting into cloth. Should we buy thick for doing vertical stringers and thing for everything else or will thin work for vertical with some patience and technique? Or should going with a faster dry...or just a few more drops of hardner. What is the best technique for vertical.

2. Can "peanut butter" be used about anywhere to fill a void? I have those small gaps we dug out near the edge of the sole where I need an inch of filler.

3. Liam, did you use tabing for deck work connecting to the sides or overlapping larger pieces...or just work with well cut larger pieces?

Stringers
 

I am using 3/4 A/C plywood with two coats of poly resin to seal it. After I install the plywood stringers into the existing cavity, I will laminate with 1708 and cap the top off with CSM.

I will be doing most of this work tomorrow so I will post some photos.

Dan,

We are going to use 3/4 AC too. We found all our bulkheads are mush too...so lots of cutting and reinstalling todo yet.

When you guys lay the 1708 on the deck...will you but the glass sheets to one another or will you over lap them...or some other technique? We are going to be using a textured paint when done so small imperfects will not bug us but we are still trying to figure out all the ways to terminate.

Ok...today was 10 hours of removing foam (yep 2 guys)...what a pain that was. We used a garden shovel (short and flat) and the trick was to only put it in a few inches and lift...larger chunks break this way. If you go to deep you cannot get it to break well. We then used short crow bars to bust up deeper and scrape the glass clean. We still have to run some wire brushes over to clean everything off were we'll retab.

Sadly the good foam will not come out easily but the wet stuff will seperate from the hull/glass easily. For us 70% of the foam was good and could have stayed but the right think todo was to take it out to see what was under it. Nothing was smelly or rottted...just a little wet in a few corners.

Who can tell us what is the best way to prep the old glass when tabbing over. I've seen grind, dewax and clean. Can someone talk more on the deway/cleaning solutions used?

The only think I can say at this point as I feel I know enough about building skill to really give this build a C-/+ below the deck. Like Liam said it's prob not as much about bad years but bad days. We found many holes in the stringer/bulkheads not sealed and rotted, poorly terminated glass that allowed wood to have direct access to water, poor and redundant bulkhead locations...just sloppy work everywhere. I sure hope they don't build boats like this anymore!

If you look at the photo 4992 where Evan is stilling I've drew a red line below an area that they put extra glass in the back area...not sure why but it seems to be a reinforcement on both sides. The problem it's pulled up...not really delaminated, just poorly done. From what we can tell it may very well be a water channel to the stringers.

Question: Can we just grind this down and glass over and be done? Or should it be cut out as much as posible...anyone seen this before?

You want the thin resin for layup,you could use the thick for making thickened resin for filler but I would just and more cabosil to the thinner resin rather than ordering 2 different resins,yes you can fill those voids in the deck edge with the peanut butter,for larger holes think about adding some 1/4 chopped glass.

As you are seeing the orginal glass work was pretty shoddy,you should be able to do a way better job. I had the same glasswork peeling off in the bilge,but mine was not the original work,someone had redone mine in the past,i was able to just peel it all off. Get as much off as possible,gind and fill all the edges and spread in some slightly thickened resin. Once you have tabbed in the stringers I would lay a fresh layer of 1708 or CSM in the bilge for extra protection.

I have not installed my deck yet I am buried with yard work right now but there are 2 schools of thought on wether to overlap or not. Obviosly it will make a stronger more watertight joint but it will also create a raised area which will need more fairing.
You need to put a layer of CSM after the 1708 on the topside of the deck,this will stop the weave showing though and cut down on fairing.
You want to grind down your perimeter enough to allow for some 1708 to overlap and then the top layer of csm to overlap further without you work ending up raised compared to the original glass.

Also you will find 1708 does not work well on corners,it does not bend well,i found it best to chamfer the top of my stringers and limber holes to allow the 1708 to work better. Make a fillet of thickened resin on any insde corners that you are going to cover with 1708 as you will not get the 1708 into 90 degree corners either. Make the fillets when you are ready to lay the glass,that will make a stronger joint(wet on wet).
While you are in the bilge area,providing you transom is good you may want to cut a mousehole and fill with resin and 1/4 chopped strand around the garboard plug,then redrill for a new garboard plug,leave the outer layer of the transom glass in place and fill from the inside,this will increase the life of you transom.

Man you got the best info! I'm following your solid to the "mouse hold discussion".

A surveyor on site when we picked up the old boat give our transom a "solid" rating...but that is about all we found solid. Should we clean up where the transom meets the hull and re-tab that out too as well as the drain comment from you?

Where were these boats primarily made, what location?

Can one assume that other Wellcrafts (scarabs for example) have this terrible glasswork below the deck? I got a few buddies with 80s scarabs, one's a beautiful center console...I wonder how scared he'll be when he sees my photos!

most were made in the sarasota plant. gotta remember, these hulls are 20 to 30 years old, plus the materials & techniques were still evolving.
when i cut out & replaced my deck, i bonded a 1/2 wooden tab to the underside of the lip like a shelf around the cavity. i then cut out a piece of 1/2 ply to fit the hole, then glassed over & faired to the original edge. this left the everything flush on the deck.

More great posts! Like the idea about the garboard drain and Phatdaddy's idea about filling the edge of the deck.

I think a lot of the quality issues come down to Wellcrafts being a mass production boat. Having an '85 and breifly an '86 there were differences in quality of hardware. Some stainless parts on my '85 were the chrome zamak pot metal on the '86. The company I'm sure was shopping prices on things to keep costs down and I'm sure this carried over to glass work as well.

I like chevy/GMC trucks. Not too many 85 models that don't need some work,have had shoddy repairs from several previous owners, or would benefit from newer technology out there. Once in a great while you run across a low mileage, garage kept, and owned by an old man cream puff.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...aintenance.pdf

look through this book its short and has a lot of great ideas and techniques. you can pick up a hard copy for easy reference. it tends to promote west brand materials, but the ideas are universall

I copied to the Links section.

I like the fact that it's somewhat short and sweet. I have a few books on fiberglass repair and some can get a little wordy.

A great book that keeps it simple is Runabout Renovation by Jim Anderson. Got it at the library first before I bought it off Ebay for less than 10 bucks with shipping.

Thanks for the info. I'm not questing the technique (ok may be the foam!) but when you are a DIY (like me) you can spot shoddy work, and I'm seeing some obvious corner cutting production and/or inexperience. I'd like to think by 1988 Wellcraft knew how to make a boat and especially this one!

One question on your deck technique. I think you are suggesting what we are going todo. We are discussing putting a lip around the civility of the sole too so the new sole sits in like a hatch. It appears th eold wood is 1/2 and we are going to go 5/8 or 3/4 and thus have it raised...and basically have a water channel around the permitter as we have cut back around the entire deck to 1.5" from the wall. Is this what you are explaining to other then a flush deck?

We have a leaning post, centerconsole and t-top and want more thickness in our wood. Do you think we are overkilling on thickness or does it sound like increasing makes sense with our deck variables?

Oh this is great!!

i kept mine flush with the existing deck.

one trick i did learn, after you get your lip around the cavity, make a template out of thin strips of 2x4 cut edgewise (maybe 1/8 " thick) and fastened together with a hot glue gun. you can get a very exact fit and it transfers to your ply very easily. this will cut down on the voids between old deck & new

1708
 

1708 does not bend very good so I butted the 1708 and used CSM to bend around corners.

Today's accomplishments:

Spent all day glassing in stringers, took more time than I thought but I am happy with the results.

Inserted 3/4" A/C plywood (resin coated) into existing stringers and bulk heads (tops cut off, wood removed and cleaned)

Needed to add some putty filler on top as I left the plywood a little short. This allowed me to cap off the tops and make a nice finish.

Added 6" tab of 1708 to the bottoms of all stringers and bulk heads. Added 10" 1708 over top of the 6". Capped the tops of the stringers with CSM with to layers of 10"

This is all I got to today. I still need to add two layers of 10" CSM over top of the 1708 on the bottom.

I can't believe how strong my stringers are now.

I am almost ready for the floor which will be 3/4" A/C or 3/4" birch from Lowes. About the same price. Not sure if birch is much heaver or not.

I will be going over the 3/4" floor with two layers of CSM on both sides.

This should give the boat a very solid feeling.

I am decided not to add any foam. Leaving everything able to drain and breath.

You can also add 3/4 ply to the underside of the deck in any area you will be putting a seat,console etc,anywhere you need to screw into.

Although the birch has very few voids I have read it does not take resin well,the resin does not soak into the wood and create a good bond. I have not tested this myself though.

I considered this teqnique,but it seems the underside of the remaining perimeter is very uneven. How did you seal your tabs,did you just soak them in resin and then screw them from the top with thickened resin? thanks

had to do some grinding on bottom side. the tabs were soaked with epoxy & then bonded to the lip with slightly thickened epoxy(to cut down on the dripping). held in place with c clamps until cured. no mechanical fasteners. i used epoxy only, not polyester. i think it has a stronger bond & is easier to work with. more consistent pot life & work time. the down side is you are then forced to paint deck, can't gel coat.