To foam or not to foam..that is the question..
 

Ok, here's the situation... We have the deck off the V21 now.. The good news is the stringers are fine. The bad news is the foam is soaked... it smelled like a cesspool. Voids in the foam, gallons and gallons of water trapped... ugh!.. The PO obviously never drained the bilge and never left the access covers off so things cound dry out when stored. We're in the process of removing it all now..

So here's the question.

Do I replace the foam or not? I know it acts as a sound absorber, and also as a stiffener... but is it really necessary? We've removed the rotten balsa wood that was the underflooring of the deck and laminated on 3/4 marine ply, then sealed and glassed over the whole thing so the wood is encapsulated. The floor sits on the stringers and is plenty strong so there's no flex, so do I really need the foam? (It's rather expensive and I'm guessing that I'll need about 20 gals of the stuff to refoam).

Opinions??:head:

I never had it in my 74 V, and they did not even put it in when they made the boat.
But when I took a 10 foot wave over the bow it filled the inside up to the gunnles and still floated!!
By what i read in another thread not long ago, the 21 has some sealed areas for flotation so with that news, and what i saw with my old boat, and the $$ your going to spend i would say go with out!

That said the coast guard has said all boats from the late 70's have to have flotation in them.

i had the deck off of my 83 & no foam, except around the fuel tank.

I've removed my foam and fuel tank and am planning on using only a minimum amount of foam needed around the top edges of the new tank to keep it secured. It won't have foam underneath or around the sides. There will be 2x4s across the top of the tank, beneath the floors, just as it was originally.

Destroyer, if it's not too much trouble, could you post some pics of your v21 with the floor off? I too have a v21 and would like to see what you are talking about. I suspect I'll have to do this someday. How'd you know you had a problem?

I can't imagine the relatively small amount of foam in the tank compartment would assist much in keeping a 21 afloat if swamped...certainly not if it's saturated...if foam at all, I'd follow Thacker's advise, but personally would find better way to secure the tank, leaving the foam out...MHO...

aw, if you are using pt 2x4's with an aluminum tank, you will need a barrier between the wood and the tank. that was the case with the older pt , not sure about the new yella stuff.

I stuff pool noodles in areas to act as flotation, if you can find them on sale, they are cheap and easy flotation

Having used foam I'd say definitely yes for you to use foam for the following reasons:

1. It adds floatation - a very, very good thing in case of swamping etc right ?
2. It adds sound deadening - less hearing the water under the hull, sounds more solid.
3. You've already corrected problems, so it won't likely get soaked again.

Assuming you've used foam before, and know how to use it, you'll do a careful job to avoid the pitfalls:
1. Pouring too much in a section, then dealing with the expansion issues.
2. Avoid getting the liquild on your hull surfaces - almost nothing stains worse.
3. Mixing too much at a time.

Finally, it actually contributes to the boat's structural integrity, less flex, more firm overall when the foam is used correctly and expands to a nice tight fit into specific sections.

Pics will follow shortly...meant to post them with the original post but had a problem with the camera. I didn't know I had a problem with the foam..although I did suspect it. When I bought the boat I knew the floor was soft. Reaching in under one of the access hatches I was able to pull out small rotted wood pieces from the floor and it was soaked, so I knew I'd have to replace the floor and probably the foam.

I've thought about that several times Spare.. Seems like a quick, cheap, easy solution...and with spring just around the corner they will be available in the stores shortly.


I hate it when people are right and it costs me more money..<sigh>.. I have to admit that you're right Greenie....for all the reasons you stated. I'm already looking on eBay for closed cell foam kits.. Still not 100% sure that I'm going to go that route.. the pool noodles that Spare suggested are a good idea. Quick, cheap and they are closed cell also.. the only problem with them is the voids that using them would leave that poured foam would fill....but otherwise they are really a great idea... gotta think it over.

Hmmmm...here's a thought...I wonder if I could use both? A kit contains enough foam for 15 board feet..(1' x 1' x 1")... I wonder if I could pour some foam around several vertical round sections of pool noodle cut to the proper height...let it set ...(1 minute)... and then repeat the process if necessary to achieve the desired height. The noodles would act as a filler, and the poured foam should act as a binder and would fill the voids. They are both closed cell foam, so there shouldn't be a compatability problem there.. Might have to try a small test in a plastic bucket first..but it sounds like a workable solution.. anyone have any thoughts?

Not that it should make a difference...but what does gas do to a noodle?...I suppose if ya ever had to deal w/it, a melted noodle would be the least of yer problems...:zip:

I have no idea. I know that gas melts Syrofoam, but I have no idea with it will do to pool noodle material. If, as I suspect, that the noodles are made out of polyurethane, then there probably will be no effect. Polyurethanes are not attacked by resins and they're resistant to gas and oil. They effect the foam only by a slight swelling after several hours of complete immersion when low density (1.5 to 2.O lbs. per cubic foot) types of foam are used. However, this quality of the low-density variety does allow it to absorb large quantities of water over a long period of time. (I'd be willing to bet that this is the type of foam that was origionally used in our boats.) Because of this, low density foam is not my recommendation for use below the waterline. For applications below the waterline, I think we should use urethane foams of 4.0 lbs. per cubic foot density or greater. At this density there is also no discernible impact on the foam from the hydrocarbon solvents such as gas or oil, and as an added bonus it will not absorb large quantities of water like the low density types do. I think a test block of pool noodle (say a 1" x 1" x 1" cube) weighed and measured carefully, then submerged in a pail of gasoline for 24 hours should prove or disprove it's use as foam floatation. If there is no decernable difference in size of weight, and the material doesn't soften, it should be ok for use belowdecks. :head:

Just take your time foaming it all in nicely and never mind messing around with pool noodles.

Do it right, close it all up, be happy.

Ok... figured out the problem with the camera. (I hope) These are a few of the pics of the foam problem. That black stuff in the center of the foam at the bottom of the holes is actually standing water. The wood is what was removed from the underside of the deck...totally saturated and rotted...falling apart.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...511/photo1.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...oam/photo2.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...oam/photo3.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...oam/photo5.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...oam/photo4.jpg

That is some fugly stuff there Destroyer. I like foam. It always amazed me how dry the foam was in my boat. Not much water absorption at all. If the foam was installed correctly I don't see how it got under the foam? I mean why didn't the foam bond to the hull and just fill the compartments to the top? Then why black water? was that contributed to by the rotten wood in the sole?

I would spend the $200-$300 and refoam. I was drum fishing one night in my 81 CC with the live well going not knowing it was leaking like a sieve. It wasn't obvious because my bilge was dry due to all the water running to the bow of the boat.

I only realized something was wrong once my livewell intake was above the water line.

I like to think that the foam occupied that space that the water would have gone before realizing I had a real problem in the middle of the Pamlico Sound that night.

Yes, I think you're correct on the wood staining the water. It smelled like a cesspool when first opened up... (UGH) As to how it got there... all I can think of is the PO never opened the hatches and let the poor thing air out over the winters. Once removed, if you look at the compartments that the foam is in you can see that they are all sealed from each other, so there's no bilge water that can flow from one compartment to another.... and I'm pretty sure that the hull was never submerged... so I just don't know.

One thing I'm going to do though is install a storage locker in front of the fuel tank. There's a big open area under the deck...just begging to be used.. so I'm going to put a hatch into the deck.... probably about 24 x 30 or so... (haven't taken any measurements yet). It will make a great place for an anchor locker or anything else I might care to put into it.

Anyways, my plan is to change all the hoses for the fuel tank... (they look good, but while it's open now it the right time to change them), install a new bilge pump and whatever else needs to be done, then fill the compartments with foam, reattach the deck, and then put down a rhino liner type of coating over the entire cockpit area. (It comes in white now). Then attach the radar arch, bimini, electronics, gauges, and engine and that should just about do it...:head:

One of the things I like about using noodles is they don't fill the entire space, it allows air to move freely around them, I don't care what you do, water is going to go where you don't want it, I put drain holes in each compartment that feeds to the bilge. if you get water in an area, it will drain to the bilge and not puddle in any compartment. The air moving around the noodle tend to dry it out. The V's have more than enough glass in the hull, they aren't using foam for any structural use. After owning two McKee's, and working on at least 100 Whalers, Scout's and McKee's over the years, foam construction ins't the best idea for combining with wood structure. I haven't seen a foamed boat yet that didn't have some water in the hull, that includes brand new ones that haven't even been put in the water

We're proud of you - keep up the good work.

destroyer, this is the storage i added under the deck between the cabin & fuel tank. lotsa room for buckets, bait nets, spare anchor ,etc. i like that i can stick my head down and look under the deck and also keep the channel clean under the fuel cell.

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/o...6/DSCF0397.jpg

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/o...6/DSCF0395.jpg

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/o...6/DSCF0399.jpg

this is looking toward the stern, under the built in deck locker,my fuel tank is in the very stern.

Phat, that is exactly what I have in mind... Great to see it actually done.... nice job!!!!

Spare, what you say about the noodles makes a lot of sense. I'm still torn between using them and foaming... one the one hand I get 2.5 lbs per sq ft of added weight, sound deadening and some additional structurial integrity. On the other hand I get lighter weight, good water drainage and cheaper cost..... To foam or not to foam still remains the question.

Foam that baby, so when the stringers rot to he// you will at least have another foam boat like many on the market today.

IIRC, CaptPete insulated that area under the floor and uses it as a cooler. I used that space on my center by adding in a hatch and fiberglassing in a false floor. Not easy to get to on mine, the edge of the cooler seat is resting on the edge of the hatch. I shoulda planned better.

Destroyer, Thank you for posting the pictures. I also have a V21, but I have no reason to believe I have any problems, yet. Nice to see what it looks like under there.

You're most welcome...More will be posted as the next steps are completed...here's a couple more that I managed to get outta my camera...

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...511/photo7.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...511/photo6.jpg

Spare, you've convinced me.. noodles it is...the difference between the foam in place and using pool noodles is not great as far as floatation goes, but I like the idea of having each chamber able to drain into the bilge and get pumped overboard... that's a mighty big benefit....less weight, better fuel economy, better riding boat, dry bilge and foam, etc,...

So far the best price I've found for solid 2 3/4' noodles is $62.95 for 20. Since each noodle can support 200lbs that means that a box of 20 can support up to 4000lbs. I'm going to try and get at least 2 boxes (8000lbs of floatation) crammed into all the nooks and crannys.

As an aside, Stinky mentioned that he's always believed that a boat names itself as it is being rebuilt...that the name just comes to you...
There may be some merit to that. I think that I might name her..... "Noodles" :love:

start looking at the dollar stores once it warms up a bit more

if you can hold off till after labor day, 3 for a dollar. my only concern about using them is when we leave them in the deck hold for a week or two, they get pretty mildewey(Is that a word?).

I believe you need to check your math. Try hooking 5 noodles to your motor and tossing it in the water and tell me what will happen. That 200 pounds is based on the difference of the weight of water and the weight of a person for the same volume of water. In reality, you are probably only looking at 15 pounds of buoncy (sp?) per noodle.

Hmmmm...how to answer this?.... Ok, lets try this.. You have a 12 lb rock, and you lower it into water on a string and find it weighs 8 lbs. (roughly a 33% reduction in weight) Now you take a 4 lb block of lead and lower in into the same water and you find that it weighs 3.64 lbs (roughly a 9% reduction of weight) Why the difference? Lets look at the math.
4 lbs of lead X .4536kg/lb = 1.814kg x 1000g/kg=1814.4g. This is weight of the lead. So the density of lead is 11.3437g/cc
What is the volume of the 4lbs of lead? 1814.4g /11.3437 = 159.94 cc (That's the volume of water that the lead displaces.)
How much does this water weigh? It varies..the density of ocean water is 1.027 g/cc (fresh water is 1.0 g/cc) so 159.94cc ocean water X 1.027 g = 164.26g (That's the amount of positive buoyancy applied to the lead when it is submerged.)
Now, converting back to lbs, 164.26g = .16426kg /.4536 (kg/lb) = .3621 lbs
So the weight of the submerged lead is (4 - .3621) = 3.64lbs
The reason for the difference is the density of the two objects. Lead is much denser and so it displaces less water and is less buoyant than the rock. So too, the noodle will support an average 200 lb person in much the same way that a life jacket filled with foam will, because the human body is much less dense (and so has more positive buoyancy) than an outboard engine or a fiberglass boat. As to boats, a cubic foot of polyurethane (closed cell foam)will float about 60 pounds of "dead weight". The wood parts of a boat will probably float, as well as the gas tank(s), so you don't need flotation foam to offset that weight. The fiberglass parts of a boat will barely sink, so you really don't need much foam to offset the fiberglass- maybe one cubic foot of foam per two hundred pounds (or more) of fiberglass hull. The metal parts of the boat are what you really need to account for. A small (4-6hp) outboard may weigh 45-55 pounds. A 50hp outboard will weigh about 200 pounds. So a 16 foot fiberglass skiff with a 50 horse outboard will need about six cubic feet of urethane foam to keep it afloat. A 12 foot plastic kayak will only need about one cubic foot. Conversly, a 30 foot fiberglass sailing sloop with a diesel engine and lead keel would need about 150 cubic feet of foam. (Actually, very few 30 foot keelboats have positive foam flotation, but it's not out of the question, especially when you consider all of the air pockets that would exist, as well as all of the wood interior components that provide some positive flotation). As far as our V20's and V21's go, I really don't know exactly how much foam it will need in terms of cubic feet. But I figure that Wellcraft's engineers did know when they started adding foam into the boats. By law they had to put enough foam in place to support the boat, gear and engine. So I intend to mimic the amount they used as closely as possible in the compartments, and then add additional foam in the gunnels and other places to make up for any loss due to voids between the noodles. But as far as the original statement goes, 2 boxes (40 pcs) of noodles should support 8000 lbs of human density weight, since each noodle is rated for 200 lbs of floatation. (200 lbs x 40pcs = 8000lbs). I'm fully aware of the differences of density vs volume. Maybe I should have made it a little clearer but hopefully you understand what I meant in my original statement a little better now. :beer:

I came up with 12.8 lbs based on the assumption that the noodle is solid 2 3/4" diameter x 5'long AND that seawater that the noodles will displace if submerged weights in at 64 lb/cu ft. I was going to post how he//a strong I must be when I can submerge one while swimming with my arm fully extended. LOL I know it will work, just funny math.
Destroyer, Ever consider making some limber holes to allow the water to drain from all compartments?

It is, indeed, funny math. You have to conceptualize that water is buoyant and is actually pushing up on the foam. I think it's Newtons 2nd law that gives us the equations.. I'll have to look it up.

In all cases, Spareparts made the comment that he: I liked the idea so much that in one of my followup posts I said that Truthfully I never knew they were called limber holes, but your idea is sound and exactly what I was planning to do. I plan on drilling 3/4" holes at the very bottom of each compartment and then cementing PVC pipe into the holes to make drains into the bilge area. If anyone has a reason to use a different size for the pipe I'd be greatful if they would tell me.

WOW!! you guy are thinking way to much!! I had a 1974 V20 cuddy with a gill bracket on back with a 175 rude on there, we got hit by a 10 foot wave that filled the boat to the gunnles!! The boat never went any deeper then the gunnles that day!! it was a rough water day, and after 1 guy drove slow the other (me) bailed the water out till it was down to the floor, we made it home.
1974 had NO foam or anything! So I would not worry about all this noodle crap, get her done and go fishing!!

Now THERE'S a man that has his priorities in order!!! :beer:

Gotcha Destroyer. You and I are on the same page. I'm going through the foam chronicles myself which is what drew me to your thread.

I'm kinda new around here so I'll just :zip:it.

Foaming complete.. after thinking about it and everything I just decided it was easier to foam, make it all watertight and (like MJ said) go fishing. Made a few improvements though... Foamed it completely up to the bottom of the deck , and, as shown in the last pic (sorry its a little dark) in the transom area we glassed from the splashwell to the transom to add a little extra strength to that area. (There's a gap of about an inch and a half on both sides of the splashwell that we filled with putty and then glassed over). Don't know why Wellcraft didn't do that when they made the boats... just seems like common sense. Oh well.....

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...1/photo6-1.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...1/photo7-1.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...511/photo8.jpg

Moving right along.... Next I have to add the hatch in the front area as previously discussed, get new rod boxes for the sides and install them and then start mounting things like the bimini, radar arch, antennas, engine, etc.

:clap:...I'll hand it to ya, Destroyer!!...that's a lotta nice work you've done there...and in a relatively short period of time...yer gonna have a mighty tight V there when you get done!!...:clap:

Thanks Reel. The deck is far from complete yet. Still gotta put down the equivilant of Rhino liner on it to hide the cut marks and some minor miscalculations on the cuts....[oops]. (I can actually have it done in REEL Rhino liner, in white, but the cost is just prohibitave.. almost $800)... so I'm going to do it myself. Biggest problem with that is choosing the right one. Just a quick glance on eBay revealed at least a dozen different brands... Hippoliner, Raptor, Bondo, Monstaliner, Duplicolor, LinerXtreeme, etc. all claiming to be the best and most durable... And then you get into the application process... to spray or to roll...etc. But we're making headway, and eventually we'll get er' done. I want her all finished in time for the annual get together at Tices, so I have to get my a$$ in gear.. but it's springtime and there's a ton of work to do around the house also...including painting the house itself... <sigh> just never enough time... :head:

I was going too use bed liner when i did mine, but the $$$ is also what stopped me
I used Duraback paint and it was great! there are a few here that have also used it with good results, but a few say if you get the texture paint one its a bit tuff on bare feet.

Skools did a complete rebuild of a boat a few years back and did a awesome job, he used a different paint that he rolled on. you can see the thread here, its 38 pages long and all nice reading, but floor stars on page 30

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/communit...+paint&page=30

here are a few pics from my v20 when i did it.

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...4/P0002597.jpg

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...um94/559_G.jpg

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...e_119_copy.jpg

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/...icture_159.jpg

I used durabak on my 14 McKee. I'll say this about it, make sure you put it where you want it, because once its cured, it ain't coming off. You are not going to slip on it, but if you do, its going to take meat with it. I'll spare you the details, but if they send you durabak and it comes with extra paint to tint it with, call them and ***** at them till they give you the color you ordered. When you make your initial order, they usually give you a few rollers(3" is all you need, skip the 6"), get as many as you can as they aren't cheap when you reorder more. They usually get you on shipping, so try to get all you need at one time. All that being said, its tough paint. The only complaint I have about the paint is that it does show dirt, and is a paint to clean (pressure washer)

MJ, you're right, that floor that Skools did really looks great. Ditto with your V. (Shame she's gone) :( Great pics of both boats!!

Spare, I understand the meat gone with a skid... took a little off my knee last year on a Rhino lined pick up truck bed. Who would have thought rubber could be so hard. Thanks for the advise on the get many rollers comment. I don't mind using a pressure washer... so the cleanup shouldn't be a problem. Does Durabak come in white? That's really my only major criteria. Question...how much Durabak does it take to do a deck? :head:

Comes in a bunch of covers, I got the gray and its not hot at all. I did mine 2 coats with 1 gal with texture, and it just made it. But i had 2 floor covers in my deck that did not get painted

They now boost that its a bed liner also, says 1 gal will do a 6 ft truck bed.

http://durabakcompany.com/