Blue Needs Help!

[Blue_Runner]

Alright guys, I started having an engine issue - I hesitate to use the word "problem" - yesterday. It started as soon as I cranked her up.

Here is the deal -

When I had my motor installed the shop did not hook up the choke so that it could be choked from the helm. So, instead of me taking a little bit of time to figure out how to connect it I have been using the factory choke on the engine for the last 3 years (I know - I am dumb).

This may all be irrelavent who knows but I'll just say it anyway. I only got the choke pulled out 3/4 of the way before I cranked it yesterday. It was slow to start, so I went back to check and noticed only 3/4 so I pulled it out all the way and she cranked right up. Just a little later when I went to open it up I noticed it was sluggish out of the hole. Then she would only hit 4500 RPMs and 34 mph WOT. My normal WOT is 5000 RPMS and 42 mph, so something is up. I wonder if I fouled a plug when I tried for a minute to crank it choked 3/4? I hope it is something that simple. I just put new plugs in before the Hatteras trip. This evening I will put 6 new ones in to see if that is what it is. The only other thing I can think of is carb problem from all of the low RPM trolling I do.

If the plugs don't fix it I suppose I will try running it on a 6 gallon tank just to rule out bad gas, water separator issue, or any onboard fuel related stuff.

What else would you do?

THANKS!!

[C YENSEN]

PRAY :you:





check the plug wires. mine was running like hell last weekend, and it did not seem to have its usual power. well one of the plug wires worked its way loose and i was only running on 3 cylinders.:nut:

[Blue_Runner]

Cy - easy enough to do. I haven't even pulled the hood yet. Will do that first thing before I buy the new plugs. Thanks - and yes, I AM praying!!
:sad:

[Blue_Runner]

Motor is a 2004 2-stroke 150 yamaha. Forgot to mention that.

[Airslot]

Fouled plug is a good first guess. Do you do any kind of carbon treatments? Sounds like she's running on 5 cylinders. Back to fouled pug and an easy fix we all hope...

[Blue_Runner]

Slot I've used Sea Foam....but not religiously. Guess I need take this as a warning to do better on that front.

[Airslot]

Carbed 2 strokes that troll alot will experience more carbon problems than those who don;t troll...

[Blue_Runner]

Very true. One thing that deters me from using additives is the angle of my fuel fill doesn't allow you to just pour it right in there. Gotta have a funnel or something due to the angle. I hate that.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Welcome to E-10 fuels, it's a double whammy. Not only do you get reduced milage and power, you also get to deal with more deposits because of the cleaning effect of ethanol. It sounds strange, but ethanol likes to pick up any deposits and redeposit them where you don't want them. STAR-TRON is supposed to have an additve designed just for ethanol blended fuels.

[Blue_Runner]

I just read up on the Star Tron product. Sounds pretty good.

[willy]

Blue Man did you happen to notice the fuel primer bulb when this was happening, some of what you are saying are problems I had with diffrent motors over the years and they traced back to one, fuel bulb, even a new one cause they are all crap now, two, fuel pump on the side of the engine.
If not those and the plug pull does not reveal any issues in one or more cylinders time to run an auxilliary tank.
Also a good run like you had last week in some rough water can combine with the ethanol crap in your gas to dislodge a lot of sheeeet in your tank and lines, check your in line filter and the fuel/water seperator, you are likely to find unidentifiable sheeet in one or both of them.

[willy]

Oh yea one more thing, when was the last time you gave that puppy a decarbing of the cylinders?
Carbed up cylinders cause all kinds of sheeet, over heating, timing issues believe it or not, due to uneven compression and detonation along with reduced flow of the exhaust and intake, the cylinders never carb up evenly.
Thats all I got for now Dawg

[Blue_Runner]

Changed plugs, check. Cleaned all filters, check. Ran on auxillary tank, check...none of which fixed the problem. Time to :head::head::head:

This is a bunch of :bsflag:I am supposed to be fishing for the next 2 weekends!!

[Blue_Runner]

When I get home I'm going to pull the new plugs and check it out good to see if I can tell if there is a cylinder not firing. If I can't tell I'm going to put the old-new plugs back in and do a decarb session, then put the new-new plugs back in. If that does not fix it I'm going to use my 9.9hp the rest of the year!! Not really, but that is what I feel like doing.

Will update when I know more. Thanks to everyone!

[Mulv80]

Next step for me would be a carb rebuild. Its not that difficult as long as you have the FACTORY repair manual. I'm betting you have some debris floating around in your carb bowls. I'm not sure about Yamaha but you may have a screw at the bottom of each bowl that you can loosen and let them drain and shoot some carb cleaner through. Its not the right way to do it but it may work.

[Blue_Runner]

Thanks Mulv for the advice...but there are 2 things that I don't know jack doo doo about....they are carbs and fiberglass.

Not a good father's day for Blue. Does anybody want to fly in to NC to help me fix this?
:cry:

[Mulv80]

Blue, the carbs arent like what your thinking. There are no adjustments for air or idle screws or any of that good stuff. If they are like my 2000 Johnson 150 all the jets are fixed no adjustment required. You take each carb off, unscrew the bowl, shoot some carb cleaner through the jets, blow some compressed air through them, replace the gaskets, new needle, seat, and float, re-install. Sounds complicated, but its not.

The only thing that can be tricky is the Lync and Sync but alot of motors you don't have to disturb the linkages to remove the carbs. Trust me I have rebuilt carbs on 4 different motors and I'm no master mechanic, its that easy.

[Blue_Runner]

Hmmm....wonder how much round trip air fare from Philly to NC would be? :sun:

Probably cheaper than hiring a mechanic!

Ok, I might just have to dig in to this beast. I don't want to though.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Well BLUE, your YAMAHA uses the old style OMC carbs(the ones they copied off of OMC back when they first started building them). They do have adjustable idle circuits in them, but the mid and high's are fixed. There are 6 bowl drains you can pull out, and I would reccomend you do this before you take it to somebody. You can look up diagrams and parts here.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/parts/home.aspx

[Blue_Runner]

Ferm, thanks bro!

Here is a little more info. The boat idles and runs great. No funny noises, stalling sputtering or anything like that. The ONLY thing that is wrong is it won't reach full RPM's (off by 500) and you can tell it is sluggish. It will consistently will make 4500 RPMS and 34 mph trimmed up sucking ducks as Reel would say. No variation whatsoever.

I just talked to a local shop and of course he's 2 weeks behind and he says my symptoms do not sound like carbs....said it sounds more ignition based and that I might be dropping a cylinder. If that is the case then what am I looking at here? Stator? Do these mamajamas have powerpacks? What else? When I check the plugs it should be obvious if one is not firing as the plugs I just installed are brand spanking new.

P.S. The shop said a ballpark figure on a carb rebuild is $150 per carb - OUCH!

Thanks!
Blue

[THEFERMANATOR]

That engine uses the YAMAHA CDI unit, and they are VERY reliable. A piece of trash sitting in front of one of your main jets would cause ALL of the issues you describe. Drain the carb bowls and look for debris. While you have the drain screws out, spray some carb cleaner in there. The main jets are located right behind the bowl drains, and they can be removed with the bowl drains out. Another thing you can try is to take it out and one at a time pull a plug wire off until you find the cylinder that doesn't change with the plug wire being off.

[Mulv80]

Don't pay to have the carbs rebuilt. Like I suspected you have a machine screw at the bottom of each carb bowl. Be careful when you take them out they are short fat screws and easy to drop. After you take the screw out a little gas will come out of each carb, you should have a white rag or something to catch it with. If theres debris in there you will be able to see it on the white rag or in a clear container. You can now see your high speed jet and can shoot some carb cleaner through that jet. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesnt.

Before you do any of this, pull off your air silencer so you can see your carb throats. let the engine idle and see if you can see gas coming out of any of the carbs. If you can see gas its a sure sign that you have some debris in there thats preventing the needle from seating properly in the seat and they will need a rebuild.

[CaptJJ]

I have been diagnosed with carbophobia, but everyone above is right!
Do it yourself, I've been doing mine on my 200 YAMA for several years now and it is easy. I can't believe how much $$$$$$ I gave to local repair shops to do it before. Just take your time.

JJBroc

[Blue_Runner]

I have a good buddy with an early 90's Yamaha 150. He recently had the same problem and was able to clean the jets and get it back up to par. He lives less than 2 miles from me so I will be calling him soon.

Ferm, explain what you mean by this:
Another thing you can try is to take it out and one at a time pull a plug wire off until you find the cylinder that doesn't change with the plug wire being off.

[willy]

He is talking about listening for the engine rpm change as you remove the plug one at a time. It was an old trick to find out which was the bad cylinder without equipment. Some engines you will hear it better than others, some guys rely on the tach for the detection, the one that is not firing will have no effect on the sound or rpm.
Least that is what I believe he is talking about

[willy]

Just be careful you can zapped by the high voltage and knocked on your keester.

[Mulv80]

I've touched the spark plug boot while the motor was running to make sure I had spark on all cyclinders. You can definetly get a good shock, its not like sticking a fork in the toasted but you can feel it for sure.:nut:

Like you said before Blue, if they are all new plugs you should be able to tell if ones not firing just by pulling them and taking a look.

[Blue_Runner]

I'll be sure to pad my keester real good before said test.

Here is the latest question dancing in my head - what if I determine there is one cylinder not firing? What to do at that point?

[Mulv80]

I'll be sure to pad my keester real good before said test.

Here is the latest question dancing in my head - what if I determine there is one cylinder not firing? What to do at that point?

I would check for a bad plug wire first.

[Mulv80]

Blue, i got all kinds of ideas rattlin around in my head about your problem.

Heres one that just came to mind. If the problem started right after you changed the plugs, its possible one plug is defective?

Also, go pick up a cheap spark tester from the auto parts place. You connect it between the wire and the plug and will tell you if you have spark. They are cheap, I bought one at Harbor Freight for like $4.00.

[THEFERMANATOR]

WILLY had the right idea as to what I was getting at, except I would pull one plug wire off with it NOT running and then run it. This way you can pull the wires without turning into SPARKY. Only pull one wire at a time, but if you pull a wire off and you notice no change in the engines performance then you found the weak cylinder.

[Blue_Runner]

Ok, Mulv I know its not the spark plug itself because I replaced them before the Hatteras trip (5/22) and all was well until recently when it started acting up. Now I've changed all 6 plugs again and no difference.

Thanks for the tips. I'm resting a bit after work. Gonna let it cool off just a little before I go out there.

[Blue_Runner]

Ok, it is definitely 1 cylinder not firing. So now I suppose I have to determine whether it is fuel or spark right? What is the best way?

Clean as a whistle - the only one that obviously isn't doing its thing:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/stinkery/0616081846.jpg
Facing the rear of the motor it is the top right cylinder:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/stinkery/0616081847.jpg

[Airslot]

Swap plug wires with another cylinder and see if the problem follows the wire. Then you can eliminate the plug wire from the equation.

[Airslot]

After that I'd swap coils with another for the same reason.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Does the plug have any signs of fuel on it? If not I would suspect the carb for a problem. If it is wet, but clean then I would suspect ignition(or water). Remove that plastic cover from the rear of the engine and then swap that coil with another and swap the wire with it as well. If the problem stays on that cylinder then it isn't the coil or wires. If you suspect fuel, then remove the airbox cover and start the engine. Bring the RPM's up to around 2500 and check for airflow through the carbs. If air is flowing through it, then spray some WD-40 in the top carb port side(the carbs feed the cylinders on the opposite sides of the engine) and see if the RPM's increase. DON'T USE STARTING FLUID OR CLEANERS FOR THIS! They will wash the oil off the cylinders and burn a bearing or cylinder REAL QUICK! WD-40 has enough lubrication to it to prevent damage but still potent enough to fire the cylinder. Also pull the drain screws as a piece of trash over the main jet can shut down all of the fuel to that cylinder.

[Blue_Runner]

Slot and Ferm, thanks for the ammo. My buddy is supposed to bring over one of those gadgets Mulv mentioned to test for spark. If he does I will first check for spark and then perform the above mentioned tests.

If it turned out to be a coil, how much do those boogers cost?

Wish me luck!!

P.S. Ferm no sign of fuel on that plug, however it had not run in a day or two. Probably best to run it for a minute then check for signs of fuel.

[Airslot]

Coils should be fairly inexpensive...< 30 or so?

[Blue_Runner]

Yeah, after I asked that dumb question I looked it up online....duh!

Thanks man!

[Blue_Runner]

Performed a spark test yesterday evening and I'm getting spark on all 6 so it has to be a fuel problem to that top right cylinder.

[Airslot]

Well. at least your getting there one step at a time. Time to backtrack and check that carb for fuel passage.

[Blue_Runner]

Yep, I think I have trash in there for sure. My problem is self inflicted. I waited too long to change the fuel water separator. I know for a fact I have trash in my tank. I have to be more diligent with the filters.

The plan is to take one screw out per day until the whole motor is torn apart and inventoried. Then, by December 2nd 2012 I should be able to begin putting it back together.

:hide:

[Airslot]

Funny you should mention that about fuel. About half way through dinner last night I went out to pull a sample from the racor. It was clean as a whistle. Went back in and finished dinner feeling much better:hi:

[eight]

Water in the fuel can give similar issues also. It collects in the bottom of the bowls. All you have to do is drain the bowls to get it out. Best to drain it into a clear container so you can see if it actually has water in it. The water will separate and go to the bottom.

If you look through the drain plug hole you'll see a jet. It can be removed with a skinny screw driver. There are some little holes in it, make sure they're clean.

[Blue_Runner]

Thanks eight...planning on checking/cleaning the jets this saturday. Gotta get a new racor filter too.

[Airslot]

When you get her up and running...

if you need crew for an offshore run, ring me up. I can be there in 3hours and 40 minutes.

[Blue_Runner]

Slot - that is not fair. It takes me minimun 6 hours. Also there is one problem - now its prime season so rates are practically double.

I'd love to give it another go but I doubt I can afford to go back to Hatteras until next Memorial day weekend. I'm going to be doing the South Carolina thing down at Surfside. They've actually caught some half-grown mahi about 20 miles out recently. We'll see.

Mark your calendar for next Memorial day weekend and we'll go do some killin and grillin my friend :sun:

[Airslot]

Sounds good. I remember that you were planning som,e fishing on the coast, just didn;t know where.

[Skools Out]

it could be a broken reed in that cylinder. have you tested the compression yet? you may have hurt it running it lean and dry. better test those holes for compression.

[C YENSEN]

it could be a broken reed in that cylinder. have you tested the compression yet? you may have hurt it running it lean and dry. better test those holes for compression.
.


HE'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!:clap:



:beer: GOOD TO SEE YOU BUDDY

[Blue_Runner]

it could be a broken reed in that cylinder. have you tested the compression yet? you may have hurt it running it lean and dry. better test those holes for compression.


Lord I hope not....
Only only ran it a tad. As soon as the problem showed she went on the trailer.