Info Merc Opti 150

[willy]

Listen fellers I need some advise, today I went to look at that 1996 V21 I posted a few days ago. It is actually very nice, rock solid hull, floors and the transom seems very solid. Moisture meter read slightly moist in the area near the top aluminum cap strip but dry everywhere else. I talked the guy down and then hit him with the trailer gambit, the single axle on it is a six lug but was rough, needed time and money put into it to make it work.
Right next to this boat he had a Century with a 2007 galvanized dual axle (torsion) with brakes, I offered him 10,200 for the V on the new trailer. In the end he came back over the phone after I left with 11G's for both.

Heres the glitch in my mind and why I need some advise.
The original motor on the boat had a blown power head, rather than repair the older motor they bought a 2003 Opti 150 that has been rebuilt by C&C Marine, a good rep shop in south jersey for Merc, and put that on, it reportedly has less than 50 hrs on it and looks pretty nice.

Other than getting a full survey on it which I have arranged to do next week what is the opinion on these engines from you guys who know them from experience or other knowledge?
As you guys know I have had two of them used, older Black Max's and they crushed me with bullcrap problems so I am not a big fan.
I need some feedback from the brothers before I step into the hole

[THEFERMANATOR]

I've been researching these lately as well WILLY. From what I have found the worst ones are late 2000-2001. The 2.5L(135/150/175) engines are said to be pretty good, but the 200/225's from 2000-2003 are the worst. My BIG question would be why did the 03 get rebuilt? I refer back to my recent post under the repair section about outboard rebuilding, why? A 2003 shouldn't really be needing rebuilt unless there was a failure or if it was an ex commercial use engine. Then there is the issue of what was done in the rebuild. Definately consult with a surveyor, espescially one that knows OPTI's as they do have some issues to watch for. the 2000-2001 injectors are known to cause engine failure. Also make sure and familiarize the surveyor with the history of the engine. A DFI out of warranty could get expensive REAL quick as an air pump will set you back over a $1K.

[willy]

I am still waiting for clarification of the engine sit rep. The fellow who took the boat in last fall and had the engine work done was not around to talk with.
I tried to see on the block what the numbers were and will do more with the surveyor next week.
There is no warranty which I don't understand and asked for specifics on that.Unless they got it from him for cheap w/o warranty.
I could of sworn he said it was a 2001 motor with an 2003 head on it but he was not sure and I am awaiting paperwork receipts on that. Does that sound right?
The surveyor told me that C&C, the people who reportedly did this engine have a very good rep as engine specialists and a lot of people have used them for many years in the area for Mercs.
He also told me that if he had to choose between a black engine and a grey engine he would go grey every time. Just his opinion. Mine too.
I also do not understand why a 2001 or 2003 engine would blow a power head but the surveyor say's that Mercs are a high compression engines and that they are very sensitive to anything that even slightly restricts water flow and are more prone to overheating due to those tolerances.
My even having this discussion causes me concern, concerns I don't like to be honest with you guys

[willy]

If the motor on that V21 had a JohnnyRude or Yammi or even a Zuki I would have taken it home today

[cterrebonne]

willy there was an update kit that included all new injectors and new thermostats. the inj should be blue and the t stats should be 160's if i remember correctly. like ferm said if the air motor goes out it can cost but when they go out it is pretty obvious and you can replace it your self. the key is keeping the air pump cool and lubed.

[willy]

CT if you are talking about a color you can see on the outside from what i can remember they were all basically black I believe.
Do you guys run Optis, have they been good for you?

[cterrebonne]

CT if you are talking about a color you can see on the outside from what i can remember they were all basically black I believe.
Do you guys run Optis, have they been good for you?

yeah it probably did get the update kit, because i think both the 2.5's and 3.0's used the same update kit. i never owned one but ran several as a tech. they really are easy engines to work on and diagnose. you only need a mercury DDT to help with dropping cylinders and testing tps voltage but major stuff like air pump locking up and belts snapping are easy fixes. the worst part on those engines are changing the plugs. they are like all of the older DI engines either they run forever or you have to rebuild them at least once. when i worked on them i really didnt see a whole lot of burn ups but i saw many comps go down mostly due to overheating the pump, which the ddt will tell. plus side on them are they sip fuel and will spank any 4 stroke on economy and the lower units are very solid. just make sure you use a oil which is a clean oil, fully syn because plugs are around 15-18 a piece and cleaning the carbon off the injectors is rather a pain.

[THEFERMANATOR]

MERCURY recently released a bulletin to run ONLY MERCURY DFI oil in the OPTI's. they felt alot of the early failures were due to standard TCW-3 oil not lubricating properly. So rmember that your looking at about $30 a gallon for oil. Spark plugs from MERCURY are $21 EACH, but they say you can order them from an auto parts store for $7. The OPTI's are the BEST for fuel economy right now outing the ETECs and the 4 strokers. The older FICHTS were actually on par with the OPTI's for fuel usage. The injectors in 01 were the cause of the OPTIMAX's getting the OPTIPOP name, or the OPTICRAP. There was an update, and I want to say the injectors should be blue as well, the black and red ones were the bad ones IIRC. I don't think a DFI is for me, I like being able to fix them myself with a timing light and a PRV. Not a laptop and RINDA or a DDT.

[spareparts]

I've never owned an DFI engine, I've ran more than my share, and I personally like the OPTI's. I have yet to run an engine that sipped fuel like an OPTI(no, I have put in enough time on an e-tec to have an opinion). I've allways prefered Mercury V6's over the compition, you can't beat the hp to weight(e-tec excluded). Around here everybody wants Yamaha, so I hear all the "horror stories about Merc's" . Excluding the injector issues, the biggest problems I've seen with the OPTI's ( and with HPDI's) is carbon build up casuing burnt pistons. Carbon will create a hot spot on the piston as well as increase the compresion ratio to above normal from build up in the combusiton chamber. The number one cause of this is using cheap oil. I could never figure why anyone would spend $10,000 on an engine, then pour $12 a gal oil into it, then complain that it blew up. Combine cheap oil with all day of slow trolling, that after the boat was run out to the fishing spot over loaded because it was propped out for a light load. And any motor will scatter. Using "ring free" or carbon guard in every tank, allong with using DFI specific oil will aleviate most DFI issues. Bomb had a good idea in offering their 100 to 1 oil, no one has a cheap version, so every one has to run the good stuff. AFter having to run higher priced oil, and fuel additive, it eats into the fuel savings.

After all this being said, due to the high price of parts for any DFI engine, I wouldn't own one thats wasn't under some kind of factory warranty. Older DFI engines(HPDI included) don't have any resale around here. Allong with the aircompressor failure being expensive, price out the fuel regualtor rail assembly at over $800. There is a lot of planned obsolecence into these motors. I'll stick with good old sloppy carb motors that i can rebuild the entire power head for less than the price of the outside accesories bolted onto the block

[Airslot]

Willy,

If you do any reading on THT, the OPTI's have the best rep of any of the DFI engines over there. They do like a fully charged battery. I've been able to run a pair of 225's for quite a few hours. For what its worth, I WAS planning on hanging a 150 OPTI on mine this summer. Looks like I may have to wait until spring...

[willy]

Thanks Ferm, Spare, Air and all. Still can't decide what to do. I love the boat and do not like the engine and that is an uncomfortable position to be in. I am trying to think of a creative way to swap out engine but nothing reasonable, cost wise comes to mind.

[randlemanboater]

Willy, for that kind of green you can find one that is exactly what you want......No point in spending that much on something that worries you.

[willy]

That may be where I am heading Randle

[Airslot]

Willy,

Ask them for a compression, leakdown, computer scan, and seatrail. Those are the steps that my merc dealer would do when taking an engine in on trade.

[cterrebonne]

Willy,

If you do any reading on THT, the OPTI's have the best rep of any of the DFI engines over there. They do like a fully charged battery. I've been able to run a pair of 225's for quite a few hours. For what its worth, I WAS planning on hanging a 150 OPTI on mine this summer. Looks like I may have to wait until spring...


be careful what you read on THT, they absoloutly hate e-tecs there and worship yamaha, so their opinions will be biased. i never understood the whole yamaha worshiping either.

[C YENSEN]

willy.......any pics or am I missing pics in the other thread you were talking about?

[Blue_Runner]

Willy, not to throw stones at the Mercury people out there either but Ferm raises some valid fear factors regarding that particular engine. If you figure what that boat and trailer is worth - and I can tell ya I paid $6500 for mine which had a brand new galvinized dual axle and the older Yamaha 150 that I regretibly sold to MJ and turned out to be crap - for 10 g's that would mean the motor is valued somewhere around $4500 - $5000. I don't think so.....

I say pitch up an offer for just the boat and trailer for around $5000 - $5500. If the owner thinks the motor is worth $4500 - $5000, then he should not have any problem getting it by selling the motor separately - right?

Then hang a Zuki 150hp 4 stroke and you will have one hell of a boat!

Best of luck - I feel for your perdicament. I hope like hades you can work it out so we can be V-21 brothers. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help - like take my billy club to the owner's head! :bat:

Blue

[THEFERMANATOR]

I've been Emailing with a marine surveyor lately who has been giving me some advice on the price of my PRO-LINE, and his advice is to a buyer price as though the engine isn't there if it's out of warranty. Like has been mentioned, a compressor and or fuel rail problem would pretty much be cause for a repower with an OPTI. I was going to re=power my HYDRA with one since the EVINRUDE needs work, but after doing some homework decided the fuel savings may not be worth it in the end. ALL of the DFI'S have there issues, and the OPTIMAX seems to be the best one from 2003+. If it is in fact an 01 with an 03 powerhead, it is still an 01 engine essentially. And 01 was the problematic year, unless it has had the close to $2K(what I have read) worth of updates to the injectors and rail as well as T-stats and some had some cooling hose re-routing. And all of this still has not fixed them all.

This is where having a surveyor REALLY helps. If you have one that knows these engines, he will know what to look for. And having a survey saying the engine and hull are worth X amount really helps when trying to bargain with a dealer. Like I put in the other post, that boat had ran on Ebay several times last year and never sold. Wonder if others had it surveyed as well and passed because of it. If the hull is solid and the engine is your concern, make him an offer on just the hull minus the engine and rigging. Then repower to your choice and be happy in the end.

[willy]

Air and Ferm that is what I already did this morning, he is suggesting off the top of his head that he needs to get 7g's for the hull and 2007 dual trailer
zuki dealer wants 12600 plus tax for 150

etec all in would be approx 14500

and Yammi I am waiting to hear about

A lot of money:nut:

[THEFERMANATOR]

You can find SUZUKI 150's for $8500 plus rigging WILLY, and ETEC's pop up on EBAY for $10-12K pretty regularly. Don't fear an OPTI either WILLY. The new ones are better on fuel than any other outboard out there right now, and are known to be reliable. If you have 4-6 years of warranty, that will give you time to see if you like it or not. If it gives you problems, then there is always lemon law. I'm not downing any of the newer outboards, but they aint for me. And the ETEC is nice, but your paying a premium for that BOMBARDIER advertising. A YAMAHA F150 4 stroke though would be a good match as well.

[willy]

Ferm I called around three different zuki dealers and the best price was what I posted from a smaller shop down by where I would keep the boat.
That is a rigged, propped, controls price minus NJ tax.
Where have you seen zukes for that kind of price? Inquiring minds need to know.
Also I know the newer opti's are much better but I will tell you if I could find a 150 two stroke yammi (carb) or hpdi for a good price I would prefer either, I know the fuel would be a little less efficient but I have friends with the yammi two stroke carb and they are doing very well fuel wise and problems o zip nada.
Thats why I like them, yea fuel may cost me ten to fifteen percent more a year but that reliability and the ability to work on it myself priceless

[THEFERMANATOR]

http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/suzuki_outboards.htm

He has pretty current prices, and then you need to add in $1000-1500 for rigging and such.

I also found this one on Ebay, he claims you can rig it yourself and keep the warranty.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200224841891&rd=1

And I seen a 2005 YAMAHA 150 carb'd motor new in the crate sell for $6900 last week on Ebay. Lost the listing though.

[cterrebonne]

willy i wished you lived closer to louisiana i could definately give you a good deal on an etec.

[steplift20]

jes



with those prices spark plugs and oil and etc
im going outside right now,in the rain and give my 1988 150 mercury a kiss

[willy]

Thanks Ferm, and CT they are getting a premium price up here for them, whats a 150 running down your way in the land of etoufee and crawfish?

Just got off the phone with the best Yamaha dealer in NJ, nice fellow told me what to do and advised why the yammi works out as a better deal than the zuki and would do the complete package with a yammi 150F all in for 12,300
If this guy sepearates the motor and I get the hull and new trailer for 65-7g and repower I got me a very good boat for 17 with 6 year full motor warranty. Can't come anywhere that new.
Of course I also get back in good graces with the brotherhood of the V

Don't know, going to see how it all adds up, if too much I am just going to use the G Spot in the salt more than I planned.
Talked with a fellow running a 150 yammie 4 on his walkaround. Has the flow meters and such, at 28-30 cruise he is getting 3.8 and better depending on load etc. Never got less than 3.8. I think it might do better on a V not being a very deep V like his

[cterrebonne]

willy you have a pm. the crawfish are big right now down here and since its after good friday you can get them for a good deal.

[willy]

I might have to head on down for a boil at my best friends 2000 acres and house in Lake Solitude, aint been down there for two years. UMMM UMMM
Maybe I pick me up and ETEC on the way back

[THEFERMANATOR]

Here ya go WILLY.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2007-motor-75634021

[cterrebonne]

Here ya go WILLY.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2007-motor-75634021

those style are nice, hard to kill.

[willy]

Hard to kill but a little tough on gas compared to the 4S versions, but doable thats for sure. I just got off the phone with them. No controls oil tank or prop at that price and they are 2008 current production. They have to be installed by a Yammie dealer. Or they could ship them to a NJ dealer for approx 450 truck freight. Would be a couple grand cheaper than the four stroke version all in.

[spareparts]

carry the price quote from Ed.s to a local dealer, see what he can do on one of those 150's. We had a dealer that would meet Ed's price on the engine, than make the money on the installation, plus pick up a new service customer. Couldn't figure out how he was doing it till I ran the numbers on one engine, he was buying them from Eds(probably got a little break on it) and was making the money on install, not a bad idea if you have a dealership with out a lot of service work

[cterrebonne]

Hard to kill but a little tough on gas compared to the 4S versions, but doable thats for sure. I just got off the phone with them. No controls oil tank or prop at that price and they are 2008 current production. They have to be installed by a Yammie dealer. Or they could ship them to a NJ dealer for approx 450 truck freight. Would be a couple grand cheaper than the four stroke version all in.

yeah the do drink some fuel but should be better on fuel than a comparable merc or johnrude carbed engine. you also should get a 750 credit which could be used for accy like prop controlls etc.

[phester]

v21 and trailer is 7g's.....the Yammi Ferm posted.....7g's...$14,000 and you've got a real nice rig. Almost new trailer, almost new motor and the hull should be good for another 20 -25yrs. You know you couldn't touch a comparable boat/motor/trailer new for any less than 35k-40k. $14,000 isn't chump change..... and w/ the economy, price of gas etc. there are a lot of good deals for buyers. I don't know young Will, sounds to me like if that boat didn't have the little black orphan hanging on the transom it would be sitting in your driveway right now. Look around and see what else 14k can get ya. Good luck.

[willy]

You are correct Sir

[randlemanboater]

Willy, I know it's a little more cash, but I don't have to tell you the joys of 4 stroke ownership.

Plus, I thought the economy had gone to crap, they should be begging you to take boat related stuff right now......what gives.

[willy]

well he finally got back to me last night, he is willing to separate it and pay to have the motor taken back off and un rigged, but the lowest he will go is 7500.
The repower I would go with is would be the Yammi F150. All in for that would be about 13000 with six year warranty.
I just cannot justify going with a two stroke carb motor for a boat I would have long term like this. Fuel wise after research with friends of mine would be a bigger diffrence than I thought. Also the two bangers are not warrantied long term like the fours.
The Suzi 150 would be a bout 1100 less, also has a six year warranty but the last three years with suzi are thru an aftermarket warranty company and it is a prorated rapidly decending type whereas the Yammi is from Yammi and it is full for six years. Big difference.
The ETECS appeal to me but not for the money they want, though some of that premium is gotten back by three years no maintenance but do to the cost of the premium oil required in them the oil costs between the two are a toss up.
So unless I find a motor for much less somehow I cannot get my self into an over 20G V20. Especially in todays market where I am seeing much newer and very nice boats for the same money.
Stay tuned, I am still on a motor hunt. I have seen some used but just don't trust anyone these days.
And new these days they all want them installed by a cert shop to ensure your warranty and register it with them. Even the carbed engine.
That carbed engine would be 8g's up here plus controls, gauges, prop, oil tank and install, so ten grand plus versus 12 grand plus for the F150.

[randlemanboater]

I think if you wait another month the flood of nice used boats on the market will make prices drop like a junkie on pure horse.

I was listening to the news on the radio this morning and their feature story was on the slow down in the New England boating industry. They were talking about a marina that last year had a waitting list and this year has 30 empty slips.

One guy was talking about how he had his 28 foot Baja forsale for a while and hadn't had a single call on it.

Although they said that the really high end boats are selling well, I guess all the oil executives are doing their part to stimulate the economy.

[bigshrimpin]

Willy - what are you doing with your old merc 150? What's wrong with it?

[Seaducer]

A Merc optimax will get you out of the hole quicker and carry the boat faster than any 4 stroke will. Consider a new Optimax or other DFI. Carb engines will burn a little more fuel and will be a little louder. DFIs are the best of all worlds - good speed, good gas mileage, and usually a better price than 4 strokes. Do remember though that good oil will make for a longer lasting of any type of engine. Period.

If you really want a four stroke, though, I would highly recommend Zukis. I just sold a 22ft bay boat with a 140 Zuki 4 stroke and I know it got close to 6 mpg on a cruise and still topped it out at 46 mph on a good day. Those new 150 and 175 big block in-line 4 Zukis I'm sure will carry that V21 pretty well.

[Chesapeake Troller]

Guys again I am the new guy but what a load of great advice and support can be found here! Reading the comments on the various engines is a huge help as I am looking at that very issue for my project.

On the Zuki's, I did a Boat Trader search within 500 miles of me here in North Central FL and found a 140 hp 2007 new in crate for $7,999 and the 2008 in the mid to high $8K range. That price for a 150 yammy 2 stroke from Ed's is a great one for sure though.

I have a charter boat captain friend who added a 26 Panga to his fleet and swears by his Merc 225hp Verado 4 stroke. Price is higher that the Zuki (I found a 150hp 2006 for $8K and the 2008's are in the $10 to 12 range depending on dealer. I noticed nobody said much about the Verado in this thread... no likely it?

CT

[cterrebonne]

[QUOTE=

I have a charter boat captain friend who swears by his Merc 225hp Verado 4 stroke.

CT[/QUOTE]

i have never heard that phrase before in my life and i am not joking either. i can tell you this much about the verado's i would shy away from the ones that had non-forged internals. i would like to say they are either the 06 or 07 and older.

[Seaducer]

I don't know much about Verados other than that they are heavy, but can get a boat out of the water twice as fast as other four strokes fo the same HP. A huge disadvantage is that they are supercharged and will use twice as much fuel as most four strokes. Don't believe me; google mercury and yamaha marines. Click on engine tests and find a suitable comparison. They are pretty accurate. I am a pretty big Merc fan though. Optimaxes are my favorite. The older ones can get you in a bind though.

[spareparts]

the problem with the verado is that you have to be just about married to a dealer. All the new engines require more advanced diagnostic equipment, but a lot of that stuff is ready available. The verado stuff is dealer only(right now anyways), the engine has to be set up by a dealer(electronic shift and throttle). All the new engines are going to be or allready are this way, you will have to go to the dealer for anything. Not a bad thing if you have a good dealer(it helps if you buy the engine thru your local dealer), but for those that don't have a good dealer, it sucks. The days of rigging your own new engine are over. Yamaha and Suzuki 4 strokes can be rigged by anyone that knows how to rig an old style 2 stk(just dont add double oil for break in). But for the Verados and E-Tecs, you will have to do everything thru your dealer. If you are spending that kind of money on an outboard, you better have a good dealer iin mind, otherwise you're going to be stuck with an engine that can't be serviced

[Airslot]

Verado's aren't bad on fuel at all. I've been able to run several and they are nice for certain. Even the 150 Verado tips the scales at about 530# if I can remember, so it is not suitable for a v-20, otherwise it would be at the top of my list.

[Chesapeake Troller]

Good info on the verado. Thanks guys. Looks like either Yammy or Zuki is the best fit if you want 4 stroke with Zuki looking really like a winner. I like the price!

CT

[THEFERMANATOR]

Verado's aren't bad on fuel at all. I've been able to run several and they are nice for certain. Even the 150 Verado tips the scales at about 530# if I can remember, so it is not suitable for a v-20, otherwise it would be at the top of my list.


The latest VERADOS are not that bad on fuel, the older models(i believe mid 06 and older) are not gentle on the prescious liquid gold. VERADO owners on several forums are trying to see if there older engines can be updated with the newer electronics because of the 20-30% economy increase of the newer engines.

[phester]

what about a 200 EFI Saltwater Series? A friend of mine has one [year 2000] on a 20' Robalo CC. Although the boat is seldom used I don't think there has been any problems. That motor seems to have a lot of power.

[THEFERMANATOR]

what about a 200 EFI Saltwater Series? A friend of mine has one [year 2000] on a 20' Robalo CC. Although the boat is seldom used I don't think there has been any problems. That motor seems to have a lot of power.

They be some rock solid engines, but THIRSTY!!! If you don't boat that often though, it isn't a huge deal breaker. The OPTI's are nice, but prior to 03 they were hit or miss.

[Seaducer]

There we go; another vote for Mercury! I'll bet that thing has some power. Other than Optimax those EFI 1.5L-3.0L are the best they make with Verado a close third. Compare that to a Yammie F200 that may get a little better gas mileage but not near the power. As for the original question "Merc Opti 150" the older ones seem to have too many bells and whistles, and weren't good for those who didn't go boating often. But today's Mercs are getting much more user friendly.

[willy]

from what my research has shown me none of the new engines are user friendly, the warranties on all the current engines are effected by a owner installed engine.
the warranties have to be registered by a dealer/authorized service cetner. They have to answer some tech questions about the set up, rpm prop etc. All of them, Suzi Yammie and Etec. Even the two stroke carbed yammies are this way now.
I do like the improvements the new tech has brought us. But I do not like the fact that they are very much computer controlled, which eliminates regular guys doing much diagnosing and repairing. A lot of it is so sensitive to minute program/electronic variances that it makes it like cars today. Buy it and run it until the warranty is finished and then get rid of it otherwise you will be taking major hits in labor and parts.
These hits will make it worthwhile to swap out in the long run.
In fact you go on any of the major fishing sites and that is exactly what most serious fishing guys are doing, they are unloading either the whole boat or the motor and repowering just before their extended warranty is finished.
In some ways it makes a good straight inboard more attractive, the engines can be bought new for less than half the price, a lot of the work you need to do you can do yourself and has a lot of crossover to the automotive industry. Yes you can buy a new engine with all the full computer control but you can also buy simpler set ups with carbs or basic fuel injection setups.
I do not like being taken out of the loop with products I buy for a lot of money, nor do I like being dependant on a 115 an hour mechanic to diagnose and repair the engine

[willy]

I don't think I/O's fall in this ball park because they are a pain in the Balls to work on outdrive wise and every buddy of mine that has had one has had to have work done on the outdrive constantly, every year something that costs him hundreds and hundreds of dollars
JMHO

[Seaducer]

I definately agree with willy on this one. I prefer outboards as well.

[THEFERMANATOR]

I/O's are fine for there application, but not the best for a boat that stays in the water for extended periods. The big outdrive killer is outdrive corrosion in the exhaust cavity from the inside out. Unfortunately you can't get in there to paint it or protect it since it is unaccessible. Also you have dissimiliar metals constantly submerged in saltwater. Outboards are easier to maintain as they can be trimmed out of the water and don't have to stay submerged in it. Up until DFI's and 4 strokes, the choice was easy for economy until recently. Now outboards are pretty much dominating most categories. On a V-21 though, you only have the outboard option due to the built in set-back.

And WILLY makes a good point in regards to current technology, they have gone the way of automotive and have become to complex for the average shade tree to work on. Even doing a tune-up now is involved since indexing is required for electrode clearance and proper burn. N/A 4 strokes have a slight edge in not being as complex, but not by much. And as emissions get more stringent in 09 they'll only get more and more sensors to contend with. And the rumor is by 2012 they'll even have catylic converters in outboards, possibly even sooner as MERCRUISER is already working on prototype cat converters for the 6.0L I/O there working on.

[spareparts]

Merc, Crusader, and Indmar allready have cats in Calinfornia.

[randlemanboater]

When I bought my Johnson 140 4-stroke, I installed it and the dealer sent off the warranty stuff for me....but I don't know if that is general practice for Johnson dealers or just this one.....and that was in 2003 also.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Randleman there are still a few dealers that will do that for you, but the manufacturers clearly state in there warranty that a dealer MUST install it for the warranty to be active. There are dealers out there that will say they installed it and not actually do it, and then if they need a warranty repair they may not actually have a warranty. This has happened in the past when a dealer got caught not installing the engines and the manufacturere found out and yanked there dealership license from them and voided all of the warranty's on the engines they had supposedly installed for people. I don't remember the dealers name, but I know SUZUKI did this to one and then the dealer had to pay for all of the warranty repairs when they got taken to court.

And I had heard KOMIFORNIA was requiring kitty's, but didn't know for sure. Just wait until they hit outboards with them, this ought to be interesting.

[spareparts]

i think Ed's was one of the big reasons the manufactures started clamping down on loose motor sales. They were selling motors everywhere, for prices that no one could compete with, local dealers were getting pretty pi$$ed about it. Chat Lee was selling some loose engines as well that stirred up some local dealers. As particular as the new engies are about set up, it has to be installed by someone who knows what he's doing(being a dealer doesn't neccesarily mean that they know what they are doing). A lot of the early E-Tec issues can be traced back to improper set up, and a lot of opti's popped from being over propped. Improper set up can break an owners opinion of the expensive motor he just payed for. And its not just dealers, I've seen plenty of prerigged boats(OB's, I/B's and I/O's) that were improperlly rigged by the manufacture. A good dealer can make the difference.