Opinion of the President

[TheTinMan]

NOTE: IT APPEARS THE MAJORITY OF THE POSTERS HERE ARE AGAINST THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE. IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A LESS SERIOUS AND FUN DISCUSSION, JUST CLICK ON ONE OF "STINKY'S" ADMINISTRATION THREADS...GUARANTEED LAUGHS THERE! :) Have a good day everyone!

edit: I changed the title of this thread from "Argentinians opinion of Bush" to "Opinion of Bush"

Here's a pic I snapped while in Buenos Aires, quite a bit of anti-Bush graffiti down there. I made sure with the people I met down there, like the guy that took me fishing, etc., on where I stood with our president. When asked where I was from from strangers, always said Canada. Sucks to lie where you're from because you're totally embarassed of your leader.

C'mon RAP....sure you have something to add.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Mnutz/Picture009.jpg

[willy]

Yea they have demonstrated wonderful leadership thru the years, Their ability to lead the world in such dangerous times is very impressive. The liberties their citizens enjoy is amazing and their economy remarkable. Yea I think we should pay close attention to what they think about things, could be important. ::)

[Pipe_Dream]

^
***124;
***124;
;D

[TheTinMan]

Unfortunately it's not just the Argentinians, it's the majority of the rest of the civilized world, including 61% of our own country ::)

[mmiklosz]

I'm with you Tin Man, I've been a Republican my whole life but am damned unhappy with the man in the White House. I'm lucky though. There's a family in my old neighborhood who needlessly lost their son in Iraq. I couldn't imagine.

As for the Argentineans, they had no use for us before Bush. The hell with 'em. The folks in Chile are much nicer.

[bigshrimpin]

http://www.sfbayview.com/110905/images/Argentina110405.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a similar experience when I was on my honeymoon in Greece.
Almost everyone we met (from greece and elsewhere) were really concerned about the direction of our country and the war in Iraq.

[TheTinMan]

What's everyone's opinion on the war on Iraq?

I for one feel like we were terribly deceived. If they HAD WMD that would be one thing. Was Iraq really an imminent threat to us? Sure doesn't look that way to me??? And Bin Laden is still walking around planning more massive attacks after we were "promised" he would be caught. We got our priorites all F'ed up.

[willy]

I don't think so Tin, I'm not happy with somethings going on with Bush either. But what is going on in Iraq is not about just wmd's or oil. Thats what the opposition would have you believe and the gullible listen to them. Whats going on there is about establishing a democracy in what was once the most brutal dictatorship in the middle east. Setting an example that has instilled fear in the other dictatorships in the region because a free people are dangerous to their plans. Resources that would have been used to harm our interests on our soil are being used to try and stop this democracy on their home turf and a lot of brave men and women that are there know that. They also know that if the other sh!tbird had been in office we would have been hit again and again while he was busy getting photo ops and buying hunting licenses. Bush ain't perfect by any means, I personally have not seen or heard of a politician worth his weight in whale crap since Teddy left office. But he ain't no pu$$y and he will do what has to be done to go after this sh!t and thats the most important thing to me. If you had access to the teletypes I read every day it would be to you too.

[willy]

And as far as the Argentinians and the rest of South America are concerned, frankly I don't give a crap. Most of the latin people there are wonderful souls, but they are generally lazy, sheepish in the thought processes living in economic sqaulor and as corrupt as it is possible to be. We are looked at by much of the world as "cowboys". We are independent, free thinkers do not bow to rulers, liberty is sacred and we will fight to secure it. H@ll we have sent hundreds of thousands of our men to preserve those things for others, and we have never taken their lands though we easily could have, tried to enforce are politics on them and in fact we went into debt to help them get back on their feet. The only thing we ever asked for was a piece of land to bury our dead.
Yea I'm concerned about the third world and what they think of us. Actually I know what they think of us. It depends on wether they are in trouble and need help or are comfortable living a socialist life and letting their people suffer. When times are ok we are cowboys and Bush where's a ten gallon hat on all the front pages. When cuban infiltrators are disrupting their elections and they are losing in the polls and drug money runs the honest people to ground Bush is that knight on the white horse. Et tu brutus

[TheTinMan]

Good stuff, Willy, really. *This is the purpose of this thread. *I'm trying to get peoples opinions, that's all. *Let's not turn this into any personal attacks, not that you are, but for future posters. *We are all friends here and let's keep it that way. *We are ALL entitiled to have our own opinions, what makes our country #1. *I love my country and wouldn't live in any other.

I'll respond more when I have the time. *Keep it coming guys and keep it friendly ;D

[Mac_Attack]

The reason he used to go to war in Iraq was WMD. *He had poor information. *Now that were over there he's changed the reason to the spreading of democracy, bull $h--! *I do beleive that we have to fully support our service men and women over there. *Shame on Bush God Bless the USA and our servicemen! *Bill Mc *;D

[reelapeelin]

Yeah, I got somethin' to add...Bush is the worst president in my recollection...but he's not the BIGGEST problem we got...he will come and go...our biggest problem is w/the political machinery as it exists today...not only the Dems, not only the Reps...it's all of them and how they are influenced to support issues that are important to BIG money and special interests in this country AND abroad...we don't have control of this country as voters...we only have control (and that's suspect) of WHO gets to screw us and stuff their pockets during the next term...

There are some solutions, but it would take a massive number of voters to change their habits over several terms and everyone wants a Quick Fix...

There's more if anybody's interested...

;)

[Franco]

I'm always interested Oz. You are right, long term politicians - guys that never had a real job. Government service does not pay that well, but they all end up rich brokering thier power and influence. Oil, pharmacuticles, insurance companies, etc run us into the ground everyday!!!

[reelapeelin]

Yup, Career Politicians are a big part of the problem...Lobbyists are another...decisions affecting our lives and how our tax money is spent can't (but are) be made by financial influence...that pipeline needs to be shut off...

[rb437]

Term limits would be a good start to fix this.

[reelapeelin]

Rick, if we can get the Career Politicians to pass legislation limiting the amount of time they can reap the benefits of rapin' their constitiuants, let's do it... ;)...on the other hand we, the voters can toss away the Party Line mentality and NEVER vote for the incumbent...no matter who and no matter how good/bad a job he/she's doin'...and never vote him/her into ANOTHER office... ::)...

"But, RAP, if a guy's doin' a great job, we still oughtta vote him out?''...YUP...''but who'll wanna step up, then?''...THAT'S when people w/real integrity and credibility WILL run for office...and not lay down in the squallor that's become today's politics... ;)...

[willy]

Term limits, first thing
Second, all media print airwave etc. required to provide airtime for all candidates. All money for elections to come from public funds. No private campaigning money allowed.
Third and fourth party candidates given same air time as Dems or Reps.
To be honest other than who their diferent sponsors are this two party system has played us for fools, nothing has been fixed and we're in serious trouble.
We need to expand the playing field by law. It cost Corzine and the other idiot (multi millionairs) 200 million dollars to win the New Jersey Gov office. They don't spend that money because of their strong desire to serve the people!
A law with teeth concerning influence peddling in which the politician and the buyer serve minimum five year sentences.
A law against a politician working for or accepting any compensation from any entity that it voted for during his limited term for five years after office.
A chicken in every pot and a super model on every V20 ;D

[reelapeelin]

SCORE, WILLY...go ahead, Man...that's what I'M talkin' about!!...get the money outta gettin' elected and you'll clean up the system...

Outlaw POLITICS while we're at it!!! Anybody caught politickin' will be tarred and feathered (REALLY) and rode outta town!!...

Two parties=gotta GO!!

[JeffXJ]

Can I have the soap box for a moment? Over the last ten years I've always got the feeling I was trying to vote for the least worst of the choices, not the best man for the job. While I'm only 33 I've come to realize that I've known quite a few people I'd consider to have great potential as leaders which has lead me to believe there are sooooo many more out there in our country (out of ~280 million, you'd think we could find a few great people who might want the job) Instead we get either idealists who squirm at the thought of sacrafice or cowboys goin' in w/ six shooters a'blazin. Why is that? Why is it we must always chose between left or right. I'd rather be in the center, which is where I think most of us are. Yet there is no "center" party. Hmmm. Money plays a very big factor, but then how are we supposed to hear what they have to say when they can't buy airtime or fund cross country plane/bus/train ride to as many places as possible so we can hear them speak. For a while I thought the internet might be a great way for a political party to get it's message out, but then I realized most people wouldn't bother. Especially when only about half of this country is eligable to vote and less than half of those actually vote! I think everyone should pause when you stop to think that 500 million votes were cast for "American Idol" but only 70 million votes (I might be a little off on that one, but I know I'm at least close) were cast for the last election. I don't think the answer soley lies with "fixing" the political process, but fixing the mindset of americans as well. It is our government! The ones WE elect are mere servants and they need to be reminded of that. The only way that happens is when the voters actually become proactive and informed. Not something most poeple want to put much time into these days. And if we need an example of what CAN happen just take a look a Palistin (I can't spell either). From what I've read it seems they voted for the terroist party mainly because they were tired of the corruption of the ruling party. Unfortunatly for them, they might have cut off their heads to spite their nose, but the point is the voters need to vote! One more quick point: if we could get quality leaders in government then the current terms that are in place now would be just fine. Now that I've rambled on past my bedtime I'll yeild my remaining characters I have left to type (and soapbox) to the distingushed v20 member below! ;D

[TheTinMan]

Willy, you said: *

"But what is going on in Iraq is not about just wmd's or oil. Thats what the opposition would have you believe and the gullible listen to them."

It wasn't the opposition??? *It was what our leadership told us! *THEY told us Iraq was an imminent threat due to their WMD program...period.

Willy, although we may not agree on the war...I totally agree with your last post 100%!!! *RIGHT ON!

There NEEDS to be laws governing campaign monies!

Jeff, exactly how I feel too. *It's a shame with the choices that we've had for president. *I didn't vote for Bush, but believe me I had a real tough time voting for Kerry. *I almost didn't vote but that wouldn't have been right. The previous election I basically threw my vote away not voting Dem. or Rep., stupid move, especially being how close the race was...and I was a FL resident at the time!

If only there was some decent candidates, but when you think about it....who the hell would want the job??hence...our choices. *It seems everytime there looks like there may be a decent canditate, they back out.

I don't think Bush is a bad, malicious person, although I agree with RAP that he is the worst president in my recollection too. *IMO he just doesn't have what it takes upstairs to be a leader. *This was eveident to me on 9-11 when he was informed by an aid while in that class room of kids that "our nation is under attack". *I just can't comprehend how our Commander In Chief could just sit there with a dumfounded and lost look on his face and do nothing for so long....IMO, he didn't know what to do...he SHOULD have jumped from his seat immediately, excused himself and found out what was going on. *

[reelapeelin]

I voted for Kerry in the last election...I would have voted for Bozo The Clown if that's what it took to keep GB from goin' back...that position has probably never been ABUSED so much as it has since he took over...

BUT, he and what he does is a PRODUCT of what a group of extremely wealthy, very influential individuals want...they are the ones ''behind the curtain'' at the controls...he is doing what they put him into office to do...

AND he's not the first...won't be the last...it's what American politics has evolved into and will remain as long as a two party system/big money to run, contiues to be the status quo...Willy's right on target, Jeff's observations hit the mark, Franco's there...Tin started this...everybody who's jumped on here feels the same way...and I haven't found ANYBODY who says, ''everything's OK as it is w/our political system...just leave it alone.''...as a matter of fact, TRY to find somebody who feels that way...pack a lunch.

What is needed is organization...

Oh and Jeff...may be time for LOTS of us to ''pull out the soap-box''... ;)...

[TheTinMan]

BUT, he and what he does is a PRODUCT of what a group of extremely wealthy, very influential individuals want...they are the ones ''behind the curtain'' at the controls...he is doing what they put him into office to do...



Of course....they're the ones contributing millions to the campaign.......so they can get there damn tax breaks!

[JeffXJ]

Things like this is what I was afraid of during the last election:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11079935/

Did we hear anything about that during the last election? Not really. The only issues that we kept hearing about where mainly centered around the Iraq war and insurgency. So I'll ask another question: who decides what the issues are come election time? In my observations the things that should be considered important like the environment, civil liberties, advancing education (especially for those of us who can't spell :P) and technology for a better future get forgotten. Instead issues like abortion make front page news. Our world is going to hell in a handbasket and the country is consumed with abortion.... Seems to me like abortion could be a mute point if we don't start taking a hard look at reality...SOON! Yet scientific studies seem to give results leaning towards what the sponsors of the studies wanted.

But alas I hate it when people offer only criticism without any thoughts of what could be done, so here goes: 1st every american citizen needs to sit through a government class and must pass with a 90% or better. The class should only consist of current events and the way different things are covered (or justified) by the constitution. In lui of the government class citizens can ENLIST in military branch of choice for a minimum of 5 years (might take 7 years to drive the point home to some). Hopefully the result would be a better informed and more active american society. I mean really, it seams Paris Hilton gets as much attention as current events. Hey wait, what if Paris ENLISTED?? Hmmm. ::) On that note I'll pass the soap box back to the next distingushed v20 member! ;D

[Skools Out]

on the war i say stop fighting pull everyone out, send Sadam back and then go make a glass parking lot out of it. then once the radation clears drill thru the glass to get the oil our selves. as they said in the movie "The Program" *Kill'em all and let God sort them out.

[mmiklosz]

I'm with you Skools. It's not worth anymore American lives.

[TheTinMan]

I'm with you Skools. It's not worth anymore American lives.

Especially when it's no win situation. Bring em home!

[reelapeelin]

Any Nat'l Guard out there?...Saw a report on the boob-tube saying all the equipment NG has taken over there has been left over there...humvees, personel carriers, tanks, etc...once they are back home, now they're operating w/as little as 5% of the gear they had B4...and no budget to replace...did somebody leave the ''back door'' open?... ???...

[TheTinMan]

Unbelievable! One of the reasons why the governments response (or lack of) to Katrina, another subject that leaves me baffled. *I felt like I was living in a third world country after Katrina. *There was NO excuse for the lack of help after Katrina. *It's not like they didn't know the damage would be bad. *A cat 5 heading for the coast?????? *Yea, the damage will be bad, why wait? *Should have had help on the way BEFORE Katrina hit. *Hurricanes are not like earthquakes or tsunami's where there's really no advance warning. *I was tracking that biotch of a storm, she was HUGE!

Just another blunder by our top government, very sad :-[

[reelapeelin]

Just another example of the politicians forgetting they are there to serve and protect citizens...not the other way around... ???...

[Pipe_Dream]

Listening to CNN of FOX (one of those) on XM last week, some politician said how the 2-party system works, and Americans don't want to get rid of it. He was a Democrat, and was trying to make the case that the Republicans are trying to "do away" with the Democrats. I nearly yelled at the radio, "The 2-party system WORKS??!" Not for years has it "worked." Talk about always feeling like you're voting for the lesser of two evils? Thank the 2-party system for that.

We need term limits. If it's okay for the President, why not for Congress? What we have on Capital Hill are a bunch of lawyers that spend the majority of their time raising funds to get themselves re-elected. It's really a sad state of affairs. If that possibility, of being a career politician, is taken away, then and only then will these guys vote the way they really feel, and perhaps their votes will reflect the wishes of their constituents.

I would really like to see a 3rd and 4th party that could mount a real challenge to the DemoRepubliCrats. They're all the same: focused on re-election above all else.

[TheTinMan]

They're all too busy trying to come up with ways to discredit each other instead of dealing with the issues at hand,,,what a zoo!

[willy]

Actually since I was a young fellow and going thru the looming Vietnam draft era I rejected as a lot of my fellow students of that era did the two party system as being a miserable failure. In fact I took a lot of heat from our parents and elders and from the political media because we wasted out vote, were not part of the preliminary election process etc.
I have watched as otherwise good intelligent people voted for the Dem or Rep because that was a party affiliation. Could not even tell me what they stood for, only cared about party affiliation.
Tell me how brainwashed you can get by culture and media.
The big thing I hear again and again is you waste your vote etc. etc. We have heard it again on this post. Yes I know its a two party system and all the other excuses but in reality I am a member of the largest political party in the U.S by a big margin. INDEPENDENTS. Thats right by a big margin. And if we ever get a strong leader and people, including the so called independents stop voting for these carreer sharks we will have a third party system and things will change forever, for the good. It almost happened with a blooming idiot named Perot for Christ's sake. Imagine if a true gifted leader was put in his position we would have a third party. I for one am not voting for the lesser of two evils anymore, I'm finding the best candidate and voting for him.
Look at just our little site, diiferent opinions about some things but I'm willing to bet not much difference of opinion on wether we should change our system to a third party or even fourth.
Come next election look for the best man, woman K-9 whatever and vote for him, get most of the so called independents to vote for them and watch what happens

[mirage2521]

Well I hate to do this but.....I give thanks daily the W is in the White House right now as opposed to either of the clowns he has run against.

WMDs he did not lie, THE ENTIRE WORLD THOUGHT THEY WERE THERE, an Iraqi General has just written a book and he says Saddam rushed the WMDs out before we went in. Has anyone looked in Syria??

W for better or worse has the Nortons to stand up and do what he thinks is right...even if it is wrong sometimes, he does not lead based on opinion polls like Kerry would have, like Gore would have and like Clinton did.

No other President in reccent history has had the momentous issues to deal with that W has. It is only natural that he get blamed since he is in the hot seat.

I could not care less what Latin America, Germany, France, Italy, Russia, China or California think about America and our politics. It is a natural reaction for any petty little country to resent the biggest, richest, strongest and best nation in the history of the world. *

North Korea, remember them, they officially supported John Kerry's campaign, can you imagine?

Katrina...unprecedented, NO ONE could have anticipated that.

We are not in Iraq for the original reason we went in, but once we were there , we cannot just leave, THE INVASION WAS FOR ALL THE RIGHT REASONS, Saddam was a threat to the entire world.

Osoma has not been caught yet, but he has been on the run like never before, to the point that he is almost totally ineffective.

I hope these opinions don't rattle anyones cage to hard but after being on the pointy end of Americas spear for 20 yrs I have some very strong opinions about this stuff.

I am not a conservative Kool-Aid drinker, and I do not vote the party line, I would have loved for Senator Lieberman to have become President, out of all the candidates I think he would have made the best President, second best is W, Liebernan would have made just as many people angry and been just as unpopular at this point in his presidency because would also have done what he thought was right and not was was popular in California, Canada or France

GOD BLESS AMERICA AND EVERY PATRIOT WHO HAS SACRIFICED FOR FREEDOM. MAY WE ALWAYS HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DISAGEEE IN A PUBLIC FORUM. Now lets go fishin'

[ericbh1]

"They're all too busy trying to come up with ways to discredit each other instead of dealing with the issues at hand,,,what a zoo!" -Tinman

That's a great observation, I agree 100%.
I also agree that we are very lucky to enjoy the freedoms we have in this country.

I've tried a couple times to formulate reasonable arguments to the effect of

"let's not berate people in other countries for their valid opinions, we will never understand how hard they work for us to have orange juice in the morning,"

but I got too mad each time to be rational. I don't advocate a socialist world where we put flowers in our hair and dance in the streets, but I advocate basic human rights for all countries we trade with.

[Franco]

Ya know how George W knew there was WMD - his dad gave them to Iraq and Afghanistan!!!! Reagan gave them to Afghanistan when they were fighting the former Soviet Union. Old Bush had something to do with it too, when he headed up the CIA.

You wanna get those deadbeat croonies and money hungry career politicians out of office, get those people who vote for American Idol to vote for president and other elected positions.

Me, personally I think we need something like " Mr. Hutson goes to Washington"

[Franco]

BE CAREFUL, THE NSA IS LISTENING!!

[TheTinMan]

Does anyone remeber Bush saying "Besides, they (Iraq) tried to kill my Dad". He said this on national television before we sent our troops over there. My jaw hit the floor! I couldn't believe my ears.

[reelapeelin]

Tin...I'm GLAD somebody else saw that, too!!...THAT'S when he made his first BIG MISTAKE...notice he NEVER said it again...he didn't ascend the THRONE...he was ELECTED Pres....also, the fact that he had Saddam's personal pistol brought to him after his capture...personal vendetta, big part of the whole invasion...

Anyway, like I mentioned, he will be gone soon (not soon enough)...it's what happens next that we can do somethin' about...Willy, all the yak about 2 parties not workin' is right on the money...But until we can field a suitable candidate w/$$ backing, best we can do is vote against incumbent party (unless it's for Hillary...SCARY :o) of everyone running...whoever's in, GET 'EM OUT!!...

Hey Franco...if I get elected, I'll subsidize recreational fishin'..."Mr. Hutson goes to Wash"....whadda HOOT!!... ;D ;D...

[ranger]

Mirage2521, I'm with you (except I did not like Leiberman). I retired from the military in 2004, after serving 25 years (10 Air Force, 15 Army). I was at the Iran hostage rescue attempt, Desert Storm and the one now. I returned from Afghanistan in 2004. I continue to work for the miltary as a civilian. The American people really don't have a clue about all the facts (most of them don't want to). They just believe the hype put out by the media, who just care about how good a story sounds. I just know that as a serviceman I felt in all of the conflicts I participated in we needed to be there. I would rather fight them on there ground than on our ground. Because when they get here we have nowhere to run. People need to quit sitting in their easy chairs making decisions without all the facts and go ask the soldiers actually over there what they think.
GOD BLESS AMERICA AND OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[willy]

;)

[TheTinMan]

From the NY Times today:

"The personal savings rate of Americans has fallen below zero for the first time since the Great Depression."

[bigshrimpin]

Man . . . do I wish it was 1999 again.

[willy]

It would be the same problem, picking the lesser of two evils. Even so we definetly got the lesser of the two evils, by a good margin. I truly cannot imagine how much worse our plight would have been, I know some can't see that but I know in spite of the defieciencies he has we are very very lucky Mr. Internet is not there.

[bigshrimpin]

A few weeks ago, I was fishing by the old mothball fleet (graveyard for decommisioned battleship). Fishing was slow and I started to think about the size of the ships and the work it must have taken just to design and assemble just one ship. Men come up with the most amazing creative contraptions with no other purpose than to kill each other. We utilize so much of our resources building battleships, bombs, tanks, guns, planes, missles, and a million other leathal devices . . . rather that trying to resolve or differences. Asserting dominance over another group of people and forcing them to give up resources and live a certain way does not resolve any of the underlying issues.

The UN was set up for the purpose of maintaining peace and resolving conflict b/w countries after ww2.

I strongly believe Bush should be prosecuted for war crimes . . . especially since the reasons he gave for going into war were bull****. We've killed 30,000+ inocent iraqi civilians for reasons that turned out to be untrue, violated the UN charter, and people are still defending this ****head president.

When the world trade center buildings fell and 2000+ americans died . . . how many people in this country we're touched in someway . . . a friend of a friend, someones uncle, an old classmate, or a close relative. How upset were you? Hell . . . stupid people in this country attacked anyone that looked like an iraqi. That was only 2000 people.

Imagine what it's like in Iraq. 30,000 uncles, mothers, sisters, brothers, relatives are dead b/c of our *** hole president and some greedy oil companies. How do you think they feel about our country? especially being occupied.

Why do we toletate this and defend Bush?

Besides taking away our freedoms, spending all the surplus funds, and taking a big **** on our country . . . why do we still defend him?

[Franco]

Hey Big, Thats an insughtful position. I am sorry for what we have wasted, our resources, our dignity, our ability to lead by positive example. We wasted lives of our children, regardless of nationality. We always will have differences, but we could respect and embrace those differences. This country is a melting pot of differences. We are only 232 years old as a country, we are still evolving as a culture. Many of the people we have a "problem" with have centuries of culture and customs behind them. I just hope Bush isn't our Nero fiddeling while our Rome burns. You run and I'll vote for you.

P.S. Just read it to my wife, she would vote for you also.

[mmiklosz]

Bigshrimpin... very insightful. Johns Hopkins did a comprehensive study last year on the amount of innocent Iraqis killed, since the Rumsfeld's Pentagon does not track it. Their estimate was over 90,000 Iraqis. That's one and a half times the number of US killed in Viet Nam. No wonder why we are so hated all over the world.

[willy]

BS I agree that it certainly would be a wonderful world if our resources were put to advancing the human condition. In fact along with a few other countries this country has contributed untold billions to advancing that condition all over the world.
But the problem is this world is not like a John Lennon song. It is full of humans of ill intention and evil goals.
Those big ships you are fishing around probably have engines in them that men like my father, a merchant marine engineer installed in them. Those ships were built, those planes were built and those rifles etc. were built to ensure freedoms for us and they have done so very well indeed.
Thank God.
A number has been quoted here of 30,000 dead in Iraq. Because of G.W! That is so preposterous that I will not even comment on it. That is pure political diatribe and quoting info, or for that fact obtaining any info as fact that comes out of a major University is like baseing your opinions on what Pravda reports to its people, in fact they are almost always the same. Interesting!
In one 2 hour long attack on his own people with a toxic nerve gas (WMD) Saddam killed over 70,000 of his own people, intentionally, with purpose.
Mass graves are turned up every day, mass brutal rapes, butchering of children slaughter of unarmed civilians by the hundreds of thousands was the norm while that wonderful world entity the UN stood by and debated and toyed with what to do for over a decade while facilities to build nuclear weapons were pursued and that wonderful group of nations were involved in a world fraud to provide him with weapons and money to further his goals in the name of oil for food programs.
Are we perfect BS no not by a long shot, but to refer to our actions as criminal and world dominating is so far off kilter that I really don't know what to say.
I remember that picture of John Lennon wearing those cute little rectangular glasses he was famous for wearing. Did you ever notice the color of the lenses Rose.
I hope we remain strong, I hope we can make things better in the world but until they elect you King BS and you outlaw evil men we will need all those trappings you and many others find distastefull.
We would also do well to step back from political motives and look at the great things this country has done for the world and how so much better it is than anything else the good Lord has allowed to flourish in the history of this planet . I to dream of a day when I don't have to worry about my sons going off to war, have to sweat a draft and watch their friends die like I had to. But I will not stick my head in the sand and pray the UN will save the day or my butt. And if Jaque Chirac or Chancellor Kohl or Putin or Saddam and the latest Shiek or Mullah has a problem with my attitude that tells me I'm (we) are doing something right.
So next time you leave the left coast and want to have a beer and talk about it let me know, got room in my V20 for everyone.

[willy]

Ok I'm done, no more political stuff, going back to boating and fishing. Only things that seem to make sense anymore ;D

[TheTinMan]

In one 2 hour long attack on his own people with a toxic nerve gas (WMD) Saddam killed over 70,000 of his own people, intentionally, with purpose.


Willy, I think these stats are way off. The town was Halabja, which had a population of 70,000. There was an estimated 3200-5000 Iraqi's gassed. Still quite a tragedy but not 70,000 dead.

I am in no way supporting that whacko Saddam, just trying to keep the facts straight.


http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/2002/0828gas.htm

http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

[TheTinMan]

Oh.............................................BS FOR PRESIDENT!!!

[bigshrimpin]

Agreed Saddam a evil bastard . . . but if you're president and going to commit our country to war for years, bomb innocent civilians, and do so going around the UN . . . then fck'n tell someone? don't lie to your own country and commit all your resources and 130,000 soldiers . . . to the capture of one man. Work through the UN!!! That's what it's there for!!

The reason we have 130,000 soldiers there is for OIL. That's it . . If Iraq had WMD then they would have already used them.


30,000 is the number bush quoted. The number are also supported by this database below of dead civilians.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/index.php?submit3=Enter+Site

[reelapeelin]

There's truth in all the comments here from Ranger, Willy and Bigshrimpin'...that's why it's such a difficult issue to deal with...but one aspect of our involvement that troubles me is the deceit prior to the invasion...no just the WMD line, but think about it...Cheney was in high-level politics since Nixon....then he goes over to CEO of Haliburton, YEARS B4 Iraq is invaded, then majicly pops up as VP!!!...the fix was in long time ago...middle east has been targeted for invasion for years by the big political machinery that we never see and the Bushs and Cheneys are front men for...and we have NO CONTROL over...

Our elected officials are PAWNS doing the bidding of people and corporations with pockets so deep we can't fathom...

[TheTinMan]

I've got a question......Why are our gas prices so high?

Exxon/Mobile had record profits. Last quater of "05 they posted a 10 billion dollar PROFIT!!!

Hmmmm...Oil companies have record profits.....and the rest of us Americans have negative savings since the first time since the Great Depression???

Anyone one want to borrow my calculator to add 2+2???

I have to ask the same qustion as BS. WHY and HOW do people still support Bush? It really does baffle me.

[reelapeelin]

I think it's due to being blinded by party politics...if a Dem is in office, everything he/she does must be right...if a Rep is in office, then everything he/she does must be right...I think it's one of the basic problems we face...

[ericbh1]

I hope Bush either tries to pass a draft bill or change laws about term limits on presidents. That way, nobody could argue for him any more. Halliburton up 0.06% today, democracy and freedom down.

Fun fact though: saw George Senior in Freeport harbor one time many years ago with a (supposedly) Secret Service boat. Black RIB around 24-28 feet, with 3 large, large outboards.
Of course an ex-president wouldn't go out on a rough day, but still, what a show of useless power. No need for bottom paint, just wind it up to 80 mph and the scrubbing is done!

It's amusing to me that he would bring Secret Service along on a sightseeing tour, Maine is about the safest place for a smart mariner.

[rb437]

I agree with ya Willy, especially the part about going back to boating and fishing. This other stuff is important, but way to heavy for this forum. I'm off to another thread. I'll bet there's something funny somewhere else in the Off Topic section....

[Pipe_Dream]

Eric, I think that the Secret Service calls the shots, and they know that there are psychos out there so they stick to the President like flies on . . . well, you know. Besides, even Secret Service agents need to have a little fun! ;D

Rick, I'm with you. If I wanted to talk politics I'd go elsewhere, not that you all don't have valid points, but I'm here for the boats! (and a little humor, too!) I'm not gonna look at this thread again!

[reelapeelin]

Hey Pipe...hope ya come back for this...one of the Secret Service guys had on a T-shirt that read: ''ATTACK ME...I need the practice!!....''

[TheTinMan]

Ex-C.I.A. Official Says Iraq Data Was Distorted

From the NY Times today:

WASHINGTON, Feb. 10 — A C.I.A. veteran who oversaw intelligence assessments about the Middle East from 2000 to 2005 on Friday accused the Bush administration of ignoring or distorting the prewar evidence on a broad range of issues related to Iraq in its effort to justify the American invasion of 2003.
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The Reach of War
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The views of Paul R. Pillar, who retired in October as national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia, echoed previous criticism from Democrats and from some administration officials, including Richard A. Clarke, the former White House counterterrorism adviser, and Paul H. O'Neill, the former treasury secretary.

But Mr. Pillar is the first high-level C.I.A. insider to speak out by name on the use of prewar intelligence. His article for the March-April issue of Foreign Affairs, which charges the administration with the selective use of intelligence about Iraq's unconventional weapons and the chances of postwar chaos in Iraq, was posted Friday on the journal's Web site after it was reported in The Washington Post.

"If the entire body of official intelligence on Iraq had a policy implication, it was to avoid war — or, if war was going to be launched, to prepare for a messy aftermath," Mr. Pillar wrote. "What is most remarkable about prewar U.S. intelligence on Iraq is not that it got things wrong and thereby misled policymakers; it is that it played so small a role in one of the most important U.S. policy decisions in decades."

In an interview on Friday, Mr. Pillar said he recognized that his views would become part of the highly partisan, three-year-old battle over the administration's reasons for going to war. But he said his goal in speaking publicly was to help repair what he called a "broken" relationship between the intelligence produced by the nation's spies and the way it is used by its leaders.

"There is ground to be replowed on Iraq," said Mr. Pillar, now a professor at Georgetown University. "But what is more important is to look at the whole intelligence-policy relationship and get a discussion and debate going to make sure what happened on Iraq doesn't happen again."

President Bush and his aides have denied that the Iraq intelligence was politicized. Stephen J. Hadley, the national security adviser, said in November, "Our statements about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein were based on the aggregation of intelligence from a number of sources, and represented the collective view of the intelligence community. Those judgments were shared by Republicans and Democrats alike."

Reports by the Senate Intelligence Committee and the presidential commission on weapons intelligence headed by Laurence H. Silberman, a senior federal judge, and Charles S. Robb, the former Virginia governor and senator, found that C.I.A. analysts had not been pressed to change their views. A second phase of the Senate committee review, on how administration officials used intelligence, has not been completed.

Mr. Pillar alleged that the earlier studies had considered only "the crudest attempts at politicization" and that the real pressures were far more subtle. "Intelligence was misused publicly to justify decisions that had already been made," chiefly to topple Mr. Hussein in order to "shake up the sclerotic power structures of the Middle East," he wrote.

According to Mr. Pillar's account, the administration shaped the answers it got in part by repeatedly asking the same questions, about the threat posed by Iraqi weapons and about ties between Mr. Hussein and Al Qaeda. When intelligence analysts resisted, he wrote, some of the administration's allies accused Mr. Pillar and others of "trying to sabotage the president's policies."

In light of such accusations, he wrote, analysts began to "sugarcoat" their conclusions.

Mr. Pillar called for a formal declaration by Congress and the White House that intelligence should be clearly separated from policy. He proposed the creation of an independent office, modeled on the Government Accountability Office and the Congressional Budget Office, to assess the use of intelligence at the request of members of Congress.

Mr. Pillar suggested that the root of the problem might be that top intelligence officials serve at the pleasure of the president.

A C.I.A. spokeswoman, Jennifer Millerwise Dyck, said the agency had no comment.

Danielle Pletka, vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, said that the C.I.A. had long resisted intervention in Iraq, and that internal pressure on analysts to resist war was greater than any external pressure.

"If the C.I.A. had spent less time leaking its opinions, throughout the 1990's, opposed to any conflict with Iraq, and more time developing assets inside Iraq, the agency would have more credibility and better intelligence," said Ms. Pletka, who served for a decade, until 2002, as a Republican staff member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

[mirage2521]

On a regular schedule the New York Times is caught red-handed creating or adjusting news to fit their own political agenda. I would not put a lot of faith in what they print until a few more better respected news outlets carry the story. If the above info is true then it will slowly start making the rounds in real news. Honestly, I don't think there is a lot of truth to it or Katy Couric would have him on already she hate GW and this would make her all gushy.

[TheTinMan]

The NY Times is the most accurate and reliable news source we have.

But if you like CNN better: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/10/iraq.intelligence/index.html

or if you like Fox news: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184514,00.html

[TheTinMan]

Wow, it just doesn't stop! >:( >:( >:(

Sell off public lands for a measly 1 billion! That land will be lost forever. Yea, that oughta help the largest deficit this country has ever seen.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184538,00.html

[mirage2521]

Well, I guess I this thread is going to go down hill as political discussions often do.

The man was elected, then re-elected and now he will be another chapter in history, good or bad.

Then we can sit back and seen things done the right way by someone elses candidate/president

Considering the alternatives he is the best we could have gotten.

I totally disagree with the abitrary selling of public land I think it should require congressional approval. Public land is just that PUBLIC, meaning it is my land for my use as a citizen.


On that note, I think this thread should be allowed to die a quiet death before someone gets thier feelings hurt or actually gets mad this is to good of a forum to allow that to happen

[TheTinMan]

Mirage, It's true about needing the approval of Congress to sell off the public lands and it will probably get shot down.

I think we are all adult enough not to let some boat (a very good boat) forum hurt our feelings. I know mine will never be hurt. Just in case, I added a note to the first post of this thread.

This is a great community here and I get tons of laughs! A bunch of great and different guys. We all know what this thread is about by now and a few guys already said they won't come back to this thread, which is fine.

I don't think a little serious discussion now and then for those that want it is a bad thing???

Anyway, enough rambling for me. I have to go back to OTand see why "Stinky's" latest video isn't loading...now THAT is getting me mad!

Have a great day all.....and have FUN! TTM

[reelapeelin]

Every day I become more convinced the ''fix was in'' to invade Iraq prior to GW's 1st term...Cheney didn't leave politics to run Haliburton because they couldn't find somebody else more qualified...he was put there to prepare Haliburton as THE supplier the US Armed Forces...we got Saddam outta the way(good), but this war is purely an issue of ECONOMICS...not freedom...

What troubles me is why the politicians and the people controling them, don't just put the truth on the table and stop all the BS about ''freeing the people of Iraq''....

[bigshrimpin]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A25406-2003Mar14&notFound=true

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

[reelapeelin]

Thanks, BS...it's all a big business deal...if Saddam hadn't been bent on world power and nukes; had he ''played ball' with the powers that be and become a viable part of global economics, he'd still be leader of Iraq, no matter how many people he gassed...

[TheTinMan]

Where was almost every 9-11 hijacker from?

But that's OK because Saudi Arabia "plays" the game >:( >:( >:(

[mirage2521]

Where was almost every 9-11 hijacker from?

But that's OK because Saudi Arabia "plays" the game >:( >:( >:(


hmmmm another conspiracy theory ::) ;)I read on the internet that W really is an arab suicide bomber out to get George sr.

[reelapeelin]

It's like I've said from the beginning...one dog bit us and we turned around and kicked another... ::)...