For Willy

[Blue_Runner]

Willy, have you seen this site? Its also a magazine. I particularly like the message board (small link on left).

All you ever wanted to know about fabricating a bow and arrow from scratch. There's a couple of "build alongs" where you follow the progress.

I remember you said you used to be in the business and I thought you'd find this interesting (if you haven't already found it).
http://www.primitivearcher.com/
I'd love to make my own and hunt deer one day. ;)

[willy]

Blue there is actually a primitive archer magazine, I have made a few with mixed results, good friends of mine have made better ones and I used to host some of the self bow bow makers at my shop for two day seminars teaching how to do it and various other subjects as sinew backing, cherry bark backing etc. I carried staves and billets and all the tools for doing same in my shop. I carried three diffrent self bow makers bows also for those interested in purchasing a nice one.
One fellow famous around the world for his creations in primitive bows, arrows and obsidian work is a fellow from Virginia named Erret Callahan. I went to his home twice and spent a week making them with him along with a group of six others. Very cool guy.
If you need info or help let me know I will do my best to get you started. May have some tools of the trade still in my shop I could help you out with, might even have a stave or two amongst my seasoning bow staves I could part with if you get into it.
There is a fellow on that site at the top talking about bamboo backed bows, his name is Dean Torges. Spent a lot of time talking with him at some events he and I have attended. If I was going to make a wood bow now knowing what I know that is the type of bow I would make, more durable and fabulous feel. Also perform well and the looks are stunning.
Let me know maybe when you are ready we can talk on the phone and I can help you along with your next addiction ;D

[Blue_Runner]

Very cool William....I figured you'd know about the site/mag.

Right now I'm just trying to learn the terminology...stave, tiller, nocks, billets etc.

I'm extremely interested but right now I don't know JACK crap about bows. I do know one thing though - they are absolutely BEAUTIFUL creations and IF I ever get back to bow hunting it will not be a modern compound bow - it will be one that I made from local materials ;)

What exactly is the tiller - is that the handle where your hand goes??

You know I already have fabricated a few points out of some of the scrap flint I find while hunting artifacts. I'll post up some pics in a min.

Thanks buddy!
BlueMan 8)

[willy]

Tiller is not part of the bow rather it is the balance of a bow. It specifically refers to how the limbs bend, referring to the arc or curve and the tillering which is how they bend in relation to each other. Generally the upper limb, do to where the pivot point is in the grip area is slightly longer than the lower limb but they must still bend in equal arcs and with equal pressure. A tillering board which is easy to make is used to do the final tillering once the proper tapering has been done to the limbs.

[Blue_Runner]

Ok, I put them in order so on the left is the first I attempt ever and far right is the last one I made. I started off with just percussion flaking - the first 4 are solely percussion, then the rest are mostly pressure flaked. I actually developed very bad elbow pain from the pressure flaking with a whitetail antler and had to stop doing it. I'm sure my form is BAD ::) but as you can see I got better and better at making them.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/stinkery/S2010058-2.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/stinkery/S2010061-2.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/stinkery/S2010060-2.jpg

[Blue_Runner]

Tiller is not part of the bow rather it is the balance of a bow. It specifically refers to how the limbs bend, referring to the arc or curve and the tillering which is how they bend in relation to each other. Generally the upper limb, do to where the pivot point is in the grip area is slightly longer than the lower limb but they must still bend in equal arcs and with equal pressure. A tillering board which is easy to make is used to do the final tillering once the proper tapering has been done to the limbs.
Wow, I don't know how long it would have taken for me to figure that out but you described it perfectly! I do recall a tillering thread showing a guy that drew a circle around a pic of him with the bow drawn - and the limbs fit the cirle amazingly.

You are the man ;)

[Blue_Runner]

I found it:
http://www.my-bow.hu/?q=filemanager/active&fid=1532

[willy]

I believe that fellow is shooting from a spot I have shot many times, it looks exactly the same anyhow, Eastern Traditional Archery Rendezvous Denton Hill PA.
Blue not for nothing but something for you to consider. You do not have to go back to the stone age to have the feel you are looking for. Making your own equipment can be done a multitude of ways, all good.
You can make a stave bow (one piece) long bow or indian style flat bow or even a recurve. All very traditional.
You can make the same bows with a backing, cherry bark, sinew, rawhide, bamboo. All very traditional.
You can make the same bows with billets( two short pieces) joined in the handle area with a long finger type joint. And backed anyway you want. Popular with yew longbows due to it being tough to find long one piece staves with a straight enough grain. Very old and traditional also.
You can make laminated all wood bows, a la Dean Torges mentioned previously, also very old and traditional.

Or you can make a longbow or recurve or short flat bow out of laminated layers of wood backed front and back or just on the back with clear or colored fiberglass. Also very tradiitional. Only real difference is the material used for backing (fiberglass). These bows are what tradtional archery went to in the early fifties due to the durability of the others and the consistent performance of the bow.
A all wood bow or all laminated bow will change in performance and durability with humidity levels and tempertures. That change can be dramatic to say the least and if you are hunting in the rain some will outright fall apart or take a big set (limbs bent backwards) and performance will drop tremendously causing all kinds of problems with arrow flight, hunting performance etc. Modern epoxy finishes have eliminated some but not all of that.
That is why the old school ( ;D) archery greats went immediately to the glass backed bows when it came out in strips they could use. My heroes, Howard Hill Fred Bear Swineheart etc etc.
You can still make these type bows and many guys do. You can use a thin layer of clear glass to get the beauty of the all wood bows and you can still make your own arrows and mount your knapped points on them. You will shoot better, your grandkids will be handing down your bows and they will still shoot like the day you built it.
Just something to think about. Either way it is still as it always was the KIng of Sports ;)

[Blue_Runner]

Thanks for all the info Willy! A one-piece stave bow sounds like what I want.

I want to go back as close to the stoneage as possible. Ideally making my own sinew string, glue, and everything.

Having said that, I don't know if I'll ever be able to but its something I'd like to do.....I'd also like to try blacksmithing and many many other things...I think that's my problem - I WANT to do too much and don't know where to start ::)

[willy]

Done that too, blacksmithing that is, actually bladesmithing. Making hand forged knives.
I think we are brothers by a different mother ;)

Understand about the primitive drive, been there and done that. It was nice making my own self bows and I did enjoy it. I would highly recommend you skip the sinew string thing though. You won't like it and it shoots like sh!t unless you live in Arizona or something. Any humidity and they turn to rubber bands that don't stretch back. And that is the indians that used them out in the southwest. Anywhere else they made fiber based or gut based string until the white man showed them some other alternatives and then they dropped that like a hot rock. Indians are smart.

[Blue_Runner]

I would highly recommend you skip the sinew string thing though. You won't like it and it shoots like sh!t unless you live in Arizona or something. Any humidity and they turn to rubber bands that don't stretch back. And that is the indians that used them out in the southwest. Anywhere else they made fiber based or gut based string until the white man showed them some other alternatives and then they dropped that like a hot rock. Indians are smart.
Ok, I will heed that advice..."brother" :-*

I still don't have a good workshop on my property...that is another thing keeping me from making these fantasies a reality. :-/

[willy]

This isn't turning into a Stinky type thing is it ;D

You don't need much tool wise or space wise. Indians would season their staves at the top of their teepees for a season or two and work on them during the winter inside.
You need a draw knife for rough cutting after you split out your staves, you need a couple of rasps, agressive and smoothing. You need a wood scraper for tillering once you get the bow roughed out. A padded vise or a old style sit on bench with a foot press built on it , they were called a bow horse and it is where you will spend the majority of the time, they can be simple or as complicated as you want but they make life a lot easier, most use foot pressure on the bottom to hold the stave at whatever position you want

http://www.jackmtn.com/images/bowmaking.jpg

you can also use the black and decker type little work clamp table that hold projects your working on, that is what I used a lot, fold up and put away when done, but they are awkward and you have to hold it to the ground with your feet while working, after a couple of Jack's it gets interesting ;D

[willy]

What you should do first is locate suitable wood for bows and start seasoning them now. If you can find seasoned wood appropriate for bows to start that would be good, seasoned staves with a good grain pattern are available from a lot of places, just get it from a bowyer or someone with experience in what to look for, there is nothing more disheartening than working for days on a stave only to find there is a problem with the wood, the grain runs in to much of a twist to function or the wood was dried to quickly and is brittle and sanps as soon as any bending pressure is applied.
Ask me how I know? ::)

[Blue_Runner]

In looking at the board I see that Hickory isn't a bad option for wood. I have access to lots of it. So I'm just looking for large straight growth rings or what?

Thanks for all of the info Willy! I see what you are saying about not needing much in the line of tools but I still need a good workshop! I have no where to keep anything!

[willy]

hickory is ok, but you will be looking to build a "overbuilt bow" as it is called due to the fact that even though the white woods such as hickory and ash were very popular primitive bow woods they require a bow design that does not put too much compression or flexion stress on them or they take a set that gets worse with use and himidity and eventually shoot like a limp noodle type bows we made as kids with a branch and a string.
A site that looks very interesting for ya

http://www.xsorbit4.com/users/buildabow/index.cgi?board=BT&action=messageindex&start=640

There is a book by a fellow named Paul Comstock called the Bent Stick. Very informative and he is a nice fellow, used to sell his books in my shop and spoke with him many times when building mine. Do a google on him and try to go into his info on the "overbuilt bow"

If you are using the white wood bows they are what you need to build, they are great performers and very durable. Otherwise you will need to sinew back a shorter bow to compensate for the white woods fibers structure.

As far as what to look for, in picking staves you want at least a five to six foot four to ten inch diameter log, straight and with no limbs or knots, at least for now anyhow, once you get experienced you can use these knotty type of woods as long as they are solid and make what we call character bows.
You are going to make the back of the bow ( the part that faces away from you when you hold it) all one growth ring layer, the tighter the growth rings the trikier this is to do.
It MUST be one continuos growth ring on the back of the bow and you cannot cut through it anywhwere.
The average hickory or white ash stave will be fine , pick up Pauls book or one of the other self bowyers books and you will be fine. Its fun .
A friend of mine built one of the over built bows in red elm and has taken several deer and one black bear with it. Probably more now but I have not seen nor heard from him for several years.

[willy]

Oh and if you end up speaking to Paul ask him if he remembers Bill Schultz from Renaissance Archery in NJ. Have not spoken with him since I closed the shop down. Tell him I said hey ;)

[Blue_Runner]

Willy - you are one cool mother f* - I don't care what Reel and Franco say about you :-X

If and when I try to tackle something like this:

a) I'll give you a call
b) I'll take your advice and pick up the book ;)

Thanks again brother! If I have any more questions I know who to ask!

[willy]

Don't listen to those pot stirrers Blue ;D

[Franco]

Blue, your starting shi* again, first you don't invite me to go fishing with you and now you p i s s off my buddy Willy!

I want the top back sucka!

[Blue_Runner]

LMAO! * ;D :-* ;D

Franco - you come up here to the outter banks of NC and I'll take you fishin ANYTIME! * I PROMISE! *

Franco has Francofest - Hammer had Hammerfest....I guess I need to have Bluefest 2007 and invite the board up to NC for a V20/1 get together! * ;D
I want the top back sucka!
Over my dead body!

[Franco]

Don't forget that I am Italian, that can be arranged!

[tsubaki]

willy and Blue, there ain't no way, no how I can pursue making the bow, arrows or even the broadheads.
However I did go as far to research all the aspects of doing so and my hats off to ya'll doing what you have did.
Blue making the points is outstanding and the same for willy with the bows.
Read one fellow went so far to fast (drinking ilex youpon tea), covering self with charcoal camo, researching deer trails and finally not shooting the prey but plucking the hind portion hairs from the back of a doe as the trophy.
If ya'll go this far please take pictures. ;D
Wish I had the time and resourses to do the same.

[tsubaki]

Oh, such an instance reminds me of the times after work in the early fall I would put my stand and bow in the truck and head to the woods of a military reservation. I would get off work at 4:30 and usually be up the tree by 5:30 and sit there till about 8:30 in hopes of seeing something. If you have bow hunted early in the fall you know that they will only move about the first half hour in the morning and the last thirty minutes in the afternoon.
Well this afternoon it had rained just before I got there and with my stand on my back and bow in hand headed to a normal location where the deer should present themselves.
Just before I got to the location to climb a tree I stepped right in the middle of a herd of deer and they hadn’t noticed me! Just freezing apparently with full camo, stand and bow, my shape wasn’t apparent nor the human scent! What seemed like an eternity finally the three deer I could see ignored me completely enough to let me nock an arrow and get ready to shoot! Well about that time a large male yearling came within 10 feet of me, looked me up head and toe and resumed feeding! My heart was about to explode by now, on the ground with these animals so close and not worried at all! As this deer turned to walk away I pulled the bow back and it creeked, this got the attention of the young buck and he turned toward me and continued surveying what I was. He was so close and stayed to feed so long I could hear his stomach growling! During this time with the bow pulled back, I bit my thumb knuckle and waited another eternity for him to become bored with me and leave. Thank God he did. By now it was just sunset and I had all the adrenilin I could take and turned back to the truck without even climbing a tree. The other deer in that location let me know that they knew I was there by blowing at me, which I took it as you would waive to your neighbor.
I have a always enjoyed bow hunting if for just the scenery.

[willy]

They are amazing Tsubaki.
I hunted with a long bow mostly along with a few recurves all my life. The first year I hunted with my longbow, an osage 65 pound 68" long bow I watched as a mature doe walked in in front of me about ten yards away from me, I was in a old shotgun stand 12 feet off the ground. When she gave me that nice quartering away shot I drew and released and watched my arrow slide right into the spot I was looking at and come out the other side and stick in the ground solidly. It was so quiet not a sound at all except the arrow sliding right thru her. She jumped up a little startled at the sound of the arrow hitting the ground along side her, paused for about ten seconds and went back to eating the forbs she had been munching on when I shot. A few seconds later she got a little wobbly, kind of like me after a few too many Jacks and then she knelt down on her front legs and then her back legs and then layed down like she was putting her head on a pillow and went to sleep.
Total elapsed time maybe three minutes if that, probably less.
After that I hunted with longbows all the time, shooting something so beautiful and so quiet and taking such a beautiful creature in such amazing places has to be one of Gods greatest gifts to a man.

[tsubaki]

agree

[Blue_Runner]

Awesome stories fellas - you should publish them 8)