transom and other stuff

[MikeB]

My '73 V-20 CC has had its original transom repaired at some point before I bought it. I cant really tell the integrity of it but it makes me nervous going out in rough seas on Lake Ontario. I have a feeling the repair was a bandaid to the rot problem. someone bolted (both sides) a 3/16" sheet of stainless steel to the transom. Bolted through. If I lift my outboard (Yam. 150) and grab the prop for leverage, the transom does give a little. I'm not sure if any give at all is bad news!!
about a month ago, you guys set me up in the gallery so I can post some pics, but as soon as you did, got blasted with more snow so no pics. We've got nice weather now, I can take some pics and you guys can give me your opinions. My guess is it's new transom time. This kills me, fishing season starts in 1 week!!!
Damn, what to do. bag the year of boating to fix it or go for it.

Mike

[macojoe]

Well if you are getting movement then it is time to fix!!
You can drill a few 1/4 inch holes on the inside of the transome to see what comes out?? If dark dirt looking stuff comes out it is rot!! Just fill the hole back in with some epoxy after.
That motor if 390 # is alot of weight to be bouncing around when you trailer! If you don't fell safe about itthen I think you have answered your own question!! I no it sucks! But you have the hole season to fish! So you miss a little, better then getting killed over it! And if you go out with the transom falling off and you are just floating around in that cold water thats is just whats going to happen!!
That 73 has no floation in it so when it goes is gone!

Good Luck

[MikeB]

my investigation would then turn to "how to fix". I'm a handy guy who restored this whole boat, but I'm not sure what I'm getting into here. I guess you cut the transom off the boat for starters.
I'm going to drill those holes and see what comes out first. Fill with 5200? or something stronger?


Mike

[macojoe]

5200 will be fine!!
You might want to look into a composit transom?? I have never had to do a whole transom before?? But the composit looks to me to be the easyest. What you do is open the top of the transom by cutting it open, then you use what ever tools you need to do to dig out all the rotted wood. After you have it all cleaned and ready to go you mix this to part composit and pour it into the empty hole you have now made, After it has dryed you can drill it for you new motor mounts and you now have a rot proff water prof transom.
Of coarse this is the short version of the project!! And you will have to read all the steps to doing it.
I was going to do this to mine if it came down to it but I was lucky to have to just fix the hole were the outdrive went thur.

Here are some links: The first one tells you alot! and how to check for the bad transom.

http://www.islandcoastboatworks.com/Newsletters/marina3_article.htm

http://www.transomrepair.com/

http://www.tikiwatersports.com/jobs/transom1.htm

http://www.odayjavelin.com/Transom.html

[MikeB]

I did spend the day checking out transomrepair.com. The pourable transom. I think that would do the trick. couple of points with that though.
1. ALL wood needs to be removed. That is a daunting task. port and starboard ends of the transom are tough to get at. The top of the transom sits under the aft gunnel.
2. Need to keep both sides of the fiberglass. I've read ideas of chainsawing, drilling etc. but this it tough when you can't poke a hole in either side. But I think a good solid day's work would probably clean that transom out of all the wood. I guess you right down below the bilge drain to the hull bottom. I picture pouring this stuff in and it running out into the bilge! That would suck.
3. This stuff will not bond to any wood whatsoever.

Anyone try this stuff?

Mike

[Seakindly]

Never been down this road, but I can imagine removing all of the wood as possible and then being left with a very thin layer of wood still attached to the glass on both sides. What then?

You wouldn't have the access to sand it clean. Would you need to coat these surfaces with a layer of resin or glass and resin before filling with the composite ???

[MikeB]

Ok, I got the scoop from Seacast via a phone call today. They were real helpful. I uncap the top of the transom first. Than most people use a chainsaw, some use a drill bit, and basically whatever works to remove all the wood. Now to answer seakindly's question: If there is only a small layer of plywood still stuck to the fiberglass, leave it. She said it would still have a lot of resin on it and it would be safe to leave and would bond fined with the seacast.
My next question is this:
Do I raise the transom to the gunnel hight and install an outboard bracket? I've always wanted one with a swim platform like Stainless Marine's model.

If I do this what will happen to my Center of Gravity? My scuppers are already below water level. Will hanging the outboard another 18" back change that much?
I need to pull another steering cable, but all my wiring looks to have enough slack to work. Any other drawbacks?

I wonder how long all this is going to take?
I figure probably a good two full days to get rid of the wood transom, a day to glass the extended hight part and a day to pour the seacast (even though its about a 1/2 hour job. I wouldn't mind but its not really that expensive.

Any thoughts??

Mike

[Seakindly]

1st of all, I am not buying that business about the wood will have enough resin on it for the seacast to stick to it. I don't believe that the surface of the side of the wood you will be trying to adhere to will be resin coated, unless you do it. Her assurance sounds like someone just trying to convince you that their product is easy to use. It either adheres to wood or it doesn't. I would try very hard to get as much of that wood out of ther and then I would lay down a coat of resin before appling the seacast. Or I would use a different product that does adhere well to wood.

If your scuppers are below the waterline now, then they will be even more below the waterline with a bracket mount, all other things being equal, because the weight will be farther back from the center of gravity.
I don't know if your bracket will be providing flotation or above the waterline adding weight also.

Do you need a full transom? Will you be boating in "big" water. Drifting in tidal inlets, for example.

In another discussion about the stern weight issue, I posted that the anchor roller/platform system that I installed (about 70 lbs total) very nicely balanced out my kicker motor because the weight was so far forward.

Whatever time you think it is gonna take, you can count on it taking longer. It always does. ;D

[chumbucket]

Well, I guess I might as well weigh in on this one too. Here's what I would do; If the deflection of the transom doesn't appear to be excessive, I would run it that way for this season. You've already got reinforcement with the stainless steel sheets on either side. If you feel however, that the safety of the boat is compromised at all, by all means, go ahead and replace or repair.
Now, if it were mine, I'd be inclined to cut the outer skin of fiberglass of the complete back of the outside of the transom with a saw. Then it's much easier to remove all the rotted wood but save the inner liner of the transom. Use the skin that was cut out as a template to cut new marine plywood, attach, then epoxy and reglass the outer skin using West System or other comparable epoxy resin/glass system. In the end, I don't think it'll take much longer and I would personnally feel more confident in the final outcome.
That's just my .02 worth though.

[MikeB]

I really appreciate everyones opinion here. I've tried a few things to actually determine the extent of the rot. When I yank on the lower unit of the primary, the transom does move slightly. I can't imagine it didn't do this the day it was new but I don't know. I took a bolt out of the stainless plate and inspected the wood inside the hole and it was a little dark but solid. I'd like to see under the stainless panels.
I think the idea of a full transom with a bracket intrigued me so much I may be jumping the gun, but safety really isn't something I screw with.

Maybe a professional inspection would be in order here. I can describe it all day long but you can't see it.


Mike

[macojoe]

I love different opions!! ;D

I would go with the Seacast!! But as Seakindly said I would get all that I could out!! Then pour some resin in there to seal the wood up!

Now as for the center of gravity thing, Yes it is going to change!! Make sure that you get a stainless marine type bracket!! With Floation.
Mine is a 28" set back and has worked out great! For me as I was converting from I/O.
the boat will handle different, I think I have a larger turn radius then before. The Bow does rise higer then before and I am thinking of getting trim tabs to push it down when needed!
In a chop I am getting hit more in the mid section rather then cutting thur with the V
as for the rising of the transom for this?? well i don't think I would do it unless you are having water problems from drifting thur rips and things. Nothing like a full transom for that! I being a old I/O have not got a self bailing deck!! So this is goo for me.

So lets see:

Seacast Yes
Reasin in transom YES
Bracket NO

[macojoe]

Drill a few holes were you think it might be rotted!! Only take a few min. and this will tell you all!! If you get good clean wood you are set!
I rember when I had my 17 footer I saw no movement when lifting? I could rock the boat with it but not move the transom

[MikeB]

I'm drilling some holes tomorrow, I'll post what I find.
As far as a full transom, I guess I'm just tired of taking waves when trolling with a following sea. Doesn't take much following sea to take on water either. 2'ers'll do it.

I like the idea of bolting another downrigger on the full transom also. And a swim platform would be great.


Mike

[MikeB]

Well I took the caps off the wings of the transom (port and starboard) Took a screwdriver and basically pull nothing but mush out.
Drilled 4 holes directly across the transom at about water level and I think 1 hole produced wood that wasn't saturated. Other than that it was worm dirt!

Good new is that every place I exposed, the wood seperated from the skin completely clean! Probably can't expect that on the whole thing I'm sure.

Either way, transom is crap, done. Only decision now is whether to repar it as is or make a full transom with stainless bracket.

LOC derby in 25 days!!

Mike

[macojoe]

Well do you first have a bracket you can get used?? If not that Stainless bracket with swim platform is around $1500 Add to that new shift cables throttle cables and sterring cable (whole new steering is cheaper then cable) Longer fuel and oil hoses!! Now you are $1700+
This doesn't include the cost of the Seacast and other stuff you need for the project.
On top of the fact that the center of gravity thing will makethe bow rise thus having the water break in the mid section of the boat rather then cutting with the bow. So to fix this you will need Trim Tabs if you already don't have them at another cost of $600
Don't get me wrong !! I love the way my boat came out and i love the bracket!! But it was a nessary thing for me to do. And anyone converting like I did i would tell them to go for it in a heart beat!!

So I guess it is up to how much you want to spend??

Keep us informed!! Good luck

Pictures take pleanty pictures!!! Step by step to post for all to see!! you are going to be are go to , How to rebuild a transom guy!! ;D

[Seakindly]

CB's solution is the tried and true method. It has the advantage of complete accessibility and inspection. It has the disadvantage of you being left with another wood transom that may eventually rot. Also, the v20 transom has a curve to it. 70wellcraft stated that his transom had been pieced together by 4" x 4" squares of plywood glassed together. He joked that wellcraft must have had a deal with a plywood scrap yard, but I think the real explanation is that the plywood pieces were used to create the curved transom.

I think I would remove as much of the wood as I could without disturbing the glass. How easy or difficult this will be will depend on the extent of the rot. If you can get it all out without heroic effort than I would go with the seacast solution or some other material. Would 5200 do?

On the other hand if the wood removal task became too arduous, I would cut out the back skin of the transom leaving about a 2 or 3" border. Then I would get every microscopic speck of wood out of there and off of the removed glass. Next, I would cut a 4 or 5 inch border out of marine plywood using the removed glass as a template. Then I would glass it up a la CB's suggestion. At this point you can fill the void with seacast or 5200 or whatever and you will have a new transom with a minimum of wood that will not be drilled into for motor mounts etc. You will only be drilling into wood to mount a transducer. Your new transom will probably outlive you. ;)

[chumbucket]

The small squares of wood were also to prevent rot from migrating too far into surrounding wood. Back then, they didn't have the better grades of marine plywood that is available today. I redid a transom a few years ago that was curved also. It just has to be done in multiple layers of plywood, saturating each layer with epoxy resin. When completed, I can almost guarantee that the transom will outlive your ownership of the boat.
I'm not saying not to use the Seacast. It looks like a good solution. Just mor logistics to be concerned with if you are truly considering making the boat a full transom. Now you're talking molds to build up the top of the transom glass layup and so forth. I think 5200 would be much too expensive for that type of project.

[MikeB]

Ok here's what I've done so far.

Decided to got he seacast route. Not for any other reason except I'm not real comfortable hacking the back off my boat.

Spoke to seacast again and I decided to chainsaw the wood out from the top.
I guess when you spend your Saturday chainsawing your boat with your brother over a couple of beers you officially qualify as "White Trash" but I'm going for it.

We quit about 7:00 PM and have about 80% of the wood out. I was a little surprised how easy it was. Not that it was easy but the mere sounds of it was a little scary.
Dropped the motor and all the stuff included, removed the cap, stainless plates and everything else bolted to the transom including all three drain tubes (2 scuppers and the bilge drain).

Got a 25" bar for my chainsaw, built a scaffold so we were at a decent height to work. Didn't poke any holes in the skin and it still maintains it's curved shape. Getting all the wood out is not to bad as long as you take your time and trim the sides with the saw, right down to glass.
I'm not going with the bracket and full transom.

Problems so far:
1. I need to fill the wings with seacast but because the transom is under the gunnels, I'm going to have to cut the gunnels and patch them up later.
2. the skin developed holes over time where the stringers (not sure if you call them that with an outboard set up) extend to the transom. Going to have to go into the bilge and glass the hole up before the seacast is poured in or it will fill the bilge before it fills the transom.
3. What exactly do these "stringers" do? My deck is solid as a rock and they don't seem to do much to support the transom. There is some rot at the end of them but I don't plan on ripping the deck off to fix them. Mistake???

The original V 20 setup is for a 20" shaft with a cutout transom at the outboard only, mine is set up for a 25" shaft which means someone filled the transom cut out. I'm going to glass the cut out back up to the new height as per Seacast instructions.

I've got pics of the process so far and I'll post them if I can get setup in the Gallery again.
I don't know how this boat hasn't sunk yet. The plywood was about 90% rotten. At some points it actually looked like mud. Worm dirt would have been a good part of it.

We'll see what tomorrow brings, but I should be ready by the end of the day to glass the cut out and get ready for the seacast.
I'll keep you posted.
Thank you everyone for your ideas and support.

Mike

[ken]

mike,
you did the right thing by replacing the transom, don't stop by not repairing the stringers.........they do alot for the integrity of the hull.....they do help support the transom. also help the hull from flexing to much. i guess the best way to explain is they are like rafters in a house. if the rafters are bad the roof falls in......everything in a boats hull are tied in together for a reason,strenght and integrity...
i don't think i would stop at the transom, you said you were concerned about the saftey of the boat, that is why you were replaceing the transom. this is just my opinion. if your not sure check with a couple boat repair shops........
good luck with your transom.......... ken

ps measure twice, cut once. :)

[ken]

mike,
forgot to tell you to go to gallery, ken's v20 1971.
you can see whats under the floor, img 08
ken

[MikeB]

Thanks Ken;
Your pics do help. Seems to me the only way to fix the stringers is to cut the deck off. What do you do after the stringers are repaired, put the same cut out piece back on? I'd like to lie to you and say I"m doing that now but I might just wait until next winter for that one.

Back to chainsawing the transom now, my brother thinks hes ready to carve lawn ornament bears out of a tree stump by now.


Mike

[ken]

mike,
i don't blame you for makeing it a winter project.....big job. but what i would do is glass in the stringers to the new transom as far back as you can reach without tearing out the floor......it will buy you some time until you can tackle the job.
ken

[MikeB]

Good point ken.
I actually am enjoying the work, just think if I rip out the floor to fix the stringers, I'm going to loose a month or two and I kinda feel like I can make it to winter. I know that sounds hap hazard but ..... oh well......

I'm trying my hand at glassing for the first time in my life, so the floor deal is a little intimidating. I'll know more about my skills after the transom build up.

MIke

[MikeB]

Here's another thought. I can scrap that little round access plate to the bilge for a larger plastic one like tempress or bomar. That would allow me to glass the stringers even farther back.

[ken]

mike, that would work. the main thing is you attach the stringers to the transom..... ken

[Seakindly]

Sounds like a plan... glad to see Ken chiming in on this one. :)

Cb, is the transom on those v20s a simple curve or a compound curve?

[MikeB]

Today's work went really well. We got 100% of all the wood out of the transom without poking a single hole in the skin. Shop vac worked great at keeping it clean so we could see. Right now I'm ready for glass build up of transom. One question for the glass experts.

I have several small week spots and holes in the inner skin under the deck where the stringers meet the transom. I need to glass these holes as well as glass the stringers to the transom as discussed before. The spec. for the build up on the transom is for 1-1/2 oz mat/Woven roving/1-1/2 oz mat. Do I resin all three while all three are still wet or do I let each one dry first?
Also on the inner skin, do I use a heavier mat like 6 oz to connect the transom to the stringers? Seems like that 1-1/2 oz stuff is kind of thin.
I would think I would want the heavyest mat I can put on this thing. I understand the lightweight stuff for the build up as it will have a finer finish as well as thickness with the woven roving.
Any thoughts?


Mike

[macojoe]

The transom has about a 2" curve in it from the center to the edge. when I put my bracket on I had to make 11/2 " wedge shims to put on each edge of the bracket as it was form a 23 Seacraft and they are stright across.

Heavy woven is stronger then a thick mat! and The more layers you put the stronger it will be.
I would let each layer dry before I lay the next layer. it doen't take long for it to dry and will be much easier to work with!
If it were I , I think I would use brand new wood for the stringers!!
I would glass new boards right in to the transom right along the old stringers and bolt in to a good spot on the old stringers.
Then when you want to do the whole job the right way you have something already in the transom without having to mess with all the work you just done.

[ken]

mike,
you can do all 3 layers a once or 1 at a time just make sure you get all the air bubbles out or you will have hollow spots. maco had a good idea about the new wood for the stringers, but being your working thru an access hole i don't know if you can get a 12in. piece of wood thru it ????
sounds like you had a good day......
ken

[Seakindly]

MB,
For the transom, I would do all 3 layers in the same day.
Wait for the 1st layer of mat to set to a hard tack, so you don't diSturb it and create air pockets. Next, lay down the woven roven. This will soak up resin like it is going out of style. When this sets up lay down your final layer of matt. If for some reason you can't do all 3 layers in timely fashion, then lightly scuff the cured suface with sandpaper and wipe it good and clean with old rags soaked with acetone.

I don't have a clear picture in my mind of your stringers attaching to the transom. Use some bondo to fill inside corners to a curve. A tongue depresser or quarters work good as tools. Sand it fairly smooth. Lay down a few layers of 1 1/2 oz matt. Don't be afraid to tear it up to get it to cover the whole connection. You can then use strips of woven here, but it will not be easy to bend a short strip to an inside corner. Hopefully you will have an easy curve to the inside corner from all your mattwork. Fill in and top off with more matt. Whatever you are gonna do inside the stringer at the transom connection - do it before you glass like this, because you ain't getting back in there without a fight.

[70wellcraft]

just chiming in
The seacast will be cheaper than wood and epoxy
I used 3 layers of 1/2 plywood coated several times with epoxy resin used about 10 gal total doing my whole project but I feel this is the strongest way. I would be scared to pour seacast because if it does not bond with the fibleglass hull it is just a big chunck of fibergalss floating inbetween the inner and outer hull of fibergalss, also I'm sure the stringers are not connected to the transom anymore and this adds a good support.
I cut back about 3 feet at a time to check my stringers if the stringers are good it would not be that bad of a job just doing the transom. but after this repair I'm sure this repair will long out last me and this boat.
just email me with any questions