Going to check out a '93 tomorrow

[chesapeake724]

" '93 V-21 steplift, 200hp Yamaha, trailer, superclean" $9800.00

I ran it against NADA, not knowing about the electronics or other options, and it's average for retail, maybe a little on the high side. I know it's not a lot of notice, but lemme' know what you think, good AND bad. I'm thinkin' an 11 year old Yammy is due for a rebuild if it hasn't been already. NADA doesn't really account for that.

Does a 'superclean' mean the engine was taken care of, too? I'd like to think so, but wouldn't assume anything. In the upper Chesapeake, you can't really keep a boat clean that's slipped because the hull will stain, so it's likely this puppy was trailered. With any luck, there's no bottom paint.

I know, 'get it surveyed', but in my price range, it's borderline whether a survey tells much more than you can see. Little boats are usually pretty accessible to find trouble spots and there isn't much you can't whack with a rubber mallet or grab a hold of and yank on to check for integrity. Anyway, this is a spontaneous trip to check it out, so I thought I'd see if anybody'd part with some fast wisdom.

Regardless of how it turns out, can't wait to join you as an owner. ;)

[chumbucket]

Sounds like you've got the general knowledge to look at it with. Like you said, don't assume anything. The motor may not require a rebuild. A well cared for outboard can go many years without needing a rebuild. Just check it carefully. On the plus side; the motor is new enough to have the stainless steel shift rod which replaces the notorious plain steel rust through problem of the earlier generation motors. ;) That's a good thing.
Hope all goes well and you're able to finally get the boat you've been searching for so long.

[reelapeelin]

Compression check on the motor ;)...

[macojoe]

My Yamaha is 15 years old and still going fine!

Good luck!

[labii]

I paid about the same for my 1994 , three years ago . And if I were going to sell it I would not take less than that today . It too was very clean and very low hours . My motor has never missed a beat . ( YET ) Mine did come with a trailer and had been kept out of the water.

[chesapeake724]

Thanks, guys.

Well, it's in great shape. I love it. (I didn't tell the salesman that, of course.) I came close to making an offer, but held back. I'm torn between being the responsible father/provider that should get some out of some lingering debt and make improvements to the house, and the other part of fisherman/boater that says, live for today, that's what financing is for. There's an '83 that I'm keeping tabs on for $5500. There is easily way more than $4300 worth of repairs and renovation to match the condition of this one I looked at today. This boat doesn't need anything, was obviously well cared for, and I like the differences between the V21 and the V20. I forgot to ask about the compression, but that can be a condition of the sale.

I want to pull the trigger, but I have to think about my family, too. So, I'm sure you guys have been there before when it comes to these expensive toys: did you listen to your heart or did you listen to the Admiral?hh

[Airslot]

I'm a very bad example for that last question. We were looking at a new boat and had decided on a Sea Hunt 202 cc w/ a 140 Johnny 4stoke. I was losing sleep at night thinking about the 12 year note. 2 days later when my wife came home our V-20 was in the driveway, paid in full. She quickly came to love the boat, which is the one I wanted in the first place.

Airslot

[Sea_Rover]

I fell in to a 74 "garage kept" v-20 with a '85 Johnson this time last year It's never missed a beat.. your's sounds like a real fair price..

I went with my heart and you should too!...don't look back..except at the awesome wake!

Where on the Chesapeake are you..I'm at Thomas Point

[macojoe]

Family or boat?? family or boat?? family or boat?? Boat or family?? boat or family?? Boat or ?? Boat or?? what family!
I always will have my boat!! I started with a canoe when my son was 3 years old then went to a 12 tin when my daughter was 2 years old Then went with a 17 footer when my son was 7 years old Then went with the V20 when my son was 12 and the Daughter was 9.

I still have my v20 and they are 18 and 15 years old today and even though it was tough to get what I wanted at times I always keep it running with some wire and tape at times!!

Get the boat!!

[reelapeelin]

What my family gets outta having a boat around...PRICELESS ;D...My girls swim, ski, snorkle, tube and spend endless days on the water...don't wait, do it...you don't have to take them everytime you go, but include them when you can...they'll thank you all their lives :D...

[chesapeake724]

Hmmm...that changes things.

I called back to inquire about the compression. The owner of the boat (the dealer is brokering it) happened to be there. He inherited the boat and it sat for two years. They ran it in the water recently and 'it ran fine'. I said, well did someone ever run a test and get numbers. After a split second's hesitation (short, but noticeable), the salesman says that 5 of 6 are at 130psi and 1 of them is at 100psi. But 'that isn't all that much'. Not much? Sorry, pal, but I know they're supposed to be within 5% of each other and that's over 20% difference on that one cylinder. Anyone happen to know what Yammy's factory spec says? I think it's a 200TXRR.

So, knowning this, do I run away from the boat? Do I cut my offer way down and proceed with caution? A sea trial was always a condition of the sale, so I can be the judge if it runs 'fine'. But I don't like those numbers.

Thanks for the input so far, gents. It's greatly appreciated. And yes, I am leaning towards pulling the trigger.

[chumbucket]

If those numbers are in fact correct, It would certainly play into the bargaining. Especially at that asking price. Better you should do your own compression test as well as a sea trial. Do the compression test after it's warmed up too. I think the $9800 was a reasonable price range to be in leaving room to bargain. But if one cylinder is bad and you're looking at a $1200 power head rebuild, then it's a different ball game.
It may not turn out as bad as you'd think. A real nice boat for the right price would be worth a lot of family enjoyment. ;)

[chesapeake724]

macojoe,

You're a good man. I just went over to iboats and lo and behold, someone has recently inquired about the 200TXRR. Appreciate the effort!

Will

[macojoe]

I was just going to tell you what they said!! But you have beat me to it!!

Well Good Luck with it.

[Seakindly]

My 2 cents:

The guy is sellin thru the broker cause he can't sell on his own. The engine is the problem. How big - you don't know. Could just need a new head gasket - not likely. Could have a cracked block and need a new block. The motor is the dealbreaker cause the broker won't sell the boat without the motor. Do you want to pay a mechanic to go over the motor, and even if you do - how much will he be able to tell you ? - cause they ain't gonna let him rip the motor apart. The broker will probably decline your offer if it is just for the worth of the hull and lower unit. They will just wait for some other sucker to come along, unless the owner is desparate for a sale. Try to buy from the owner direct for what the broker was gonna give him.

Don't get hung up on NADA values. They are AVERAGE values and they are always low for the v20's that are in good shape and high for the v20's that are in bad shape. There are also BUC values which are much higher and presumably reflect hulls in better condition. Offer the owner or broker the BUC value of the hull, but don't mention BUC.

You could or should do a survey of the hull, if you are not sure of your own ability. A 1993 will likely have water infiltration in the wood core surrounding penetrating fasteners, but the wood will PROBABLY NOT BE ROTTED YET AND YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CORRECT THESE DEFICIENCIES AND PRESERVE THE HULL WITH THE TENDER LOVING CARE THIS WEBSITE PROMOTES.

Superclean is a silly term borrowed from used car dealers that means the boat doesn't have dents and dings and scratches.

Good luck.

[macojoe]

Iboat says!

that motor is blown or severly neglected. run,run away.
a 30 psi spread is very very bad.
good luck and keep posting
PS if you really want to know the condition of the cylinder sealing have a leak down test done. its much more accurate than compression.
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Posts: 3075 ***124; From: Kitty Hawk NC ***124; Registered: Sep 2003 ***124; IP: Logged ***124;

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I have a 225 from the same year. Definitely check for corrosion, but also it should have had new thermostats & water pump and a carb rebuild at least once in its life....
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Posts: 179 ***124; From: Boston ***124; Registered: Jul 2004 ***124; IP: Logged ***124;

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[reelapeelin]

Unless the owner finds a complete FOOL, he'll have to deal with some body on that motor...if the hull is that good, go after it based on a rebuild or repower(my preference)...find out what a rebuilt powerhead and labor to install(whether or not you do it yourself) are worth and deduct from asking price; then a little more for your trouble, and make an offer...if the broker has any scrupples(I know, they're hard to find these days) he'll be obligated to take it to the owner...I'd love to find a late model that needs repowering(hang a big Zuki or Honda on that bad boy)...that'd be perfect boat to me...alas, facing two collge tuitions, better be happy w/what I got ;D

[chesapeake724]

Okay, between iboats, my fishing board, THT, and here I'm getting a lot of feedback. In my book, it's all good, because you can never have too much info.

Here's what I think is going on. Someone inherited the boat and wasn't a boater or doesn't know much about boats. So, after storing it for two years (had to be decently sheltered if not indoors), they want to sell it so they took it to a Wellcraft dealer (umm, since it's a Wellcraft) to broker. All visual clues point out the boat was either cleaned religiously after saltwater use or may even be a freshwater boat: windshield frame and metal hardware have no pits/oxidation, no bottom paint, zincs have little wear, Delaware registration (Delaware River is fresh, then brackish as you get into Delaware Bay), etc.

So back to the 'extremes'. It's ranging from "the motor might be fine for years as is" to "the motor is dead and you're looking at a complete rebuild. If the head isn't toasted at this cylinder, can the hole be bored and an oversized piston installed? To me, this is an almost ideal middle ground between doing nothing and completely rebuilding it, but I'm not getting much feedback on possibly "fixing" just this one piston. Is that because it's just not that likely?

Many thanks again. These boards are wonderful things, and that's because of the caliber of people on them, like you gents. I'm going to let fate have some influence. I'm going to tell the salesman that I can't come in until Friday, and what I'm going to offer. I'll split the difference between zero value and book value for the motor. That way, if it's toast, then my budget allows for the rebuild (repower not in the budget) and it just means I paid a better-than-fair price for an above-average hull and the trailer. Considering the time of year, I'm with reelapeelin' that the broker should lean on the owner to take my price or generally speaking, go to bat for me as the buyer.

Playing devil's advocate, looking at it from all angles, etc. I got a question: why didn't the dealer buy it instead of brokering it? It could mean something, it could mean nothing. It may just be that the dealer isn't into buying boats outright. I inquired about my trade-in and they didn't even consider it. It was too old ('88), and maybe they consider this '93 too old as well.

P.S. The Admiral sees how out of sorts I am, and she said that if I thought I could handle the note, that she trusted me. My wife rocks! (Although, it didn't hurt that we were out on the Bay yesterday on friend's boat, the weather and seas were awesome, and she waxed nostalgic about all our great times boating.) I said that we'll raise our kids to love it, too, and this is a great boat for it.

[Seakindly]

CPK

You need to forget about the motor, and disregard the electronics ( they are old and have little resale value).

You need to determine what is a fair price for the hull (assuming it is in great shape), and most importantly - what the hull is worth to you.

Base your offer on that. The motor is a crap shoot at best and you should not be spending good money on that, even though that is what the broker has convinced the owner that he will find someone willing to do that. If the motor was a reasonably easy fix - the owner would have done that.

Try to get an idea of:
How long the broker has been trying to sell the boat?
It is the end of the season - what happens if boat is not sold? Does boat go back to owners property or does owner pay to store it for winter with broker?

You hold all the cards. Good luck.

[Seakindly]

What about the note?

If you are financing with the broker - he will be making money on the note.

If you need to finance this boat, it sounds like you will need to finance a motor, too. Can you afford to do that? Honestly, xxx dollars a month seems worth it in September, but will not feel good December thru April when the boat is in your icy driveway and you are paying 2 dollars a gallon to heat your home.

[reelapeelin]

Nah... at least the first winter, he'll either be workin' on it or sleepin' in it like I did w/mine :D

[chesapeake724]

NADA and BUC are in general agreement about the hull. It's somewhere in the $6-$6300 range, and I'm very confident it's as structurally sound as it looks. There isn't a flex, bubble, or hollow sound to be found anywhere, and the unpainted bottom isn't hiding anything. I didn't even see any superficial gelcoat/spider cracks, and no they haven't been painted over. The trailer is in good shape as well, so let's say that's $1000 for a tandem w/ brakes and tires in decent shape. Replacement, would be $1600.00 minimum. So, we're up to $7-7300 for hull and trailer. Big picture-wise, I would pay $10k for this hull with reliable power and little to no risk of further investment.

I'm thinking of pitching $8300 to the salesman. If he knows the engine's worth more than $1-1300, then the onus would be on him to prove it to me with hard evidence before we finalize the number to the owner. That's when he has to earn his brokerage cut by giving up some more proof on the mechanicals. I know he has to make a buck, but he's not going to make it off me by selling a boat with a bum motor. Everything is contingent upon sea trial, so if it idles rough, has a hard time shifting, runs hot, won't pee, etc. then even without an intensive mechanical exam, I can still decline.

SK, While I've been looking for my first Steplift, this isn't my first boat. I know that your investment is year round and enjoyment is 8 or 9 months. I been through a worse situation: putting a boat up for sale in late Spring and having it not sell by Fall. Carrying that payment through the winter so you can sell in the Spring is a greater torture than paying the note on a boat you intend to keep. ;)

I'll probably call the guy tomorrow to see what he says about my figure. I can't take off to formalize an offer until Friday, so we'll see if I even have to make the trip.

[bigshrimpin]

Chesapeake,
I'm certainly no model for negotiations, but $8300 seems too high for a boat with a "blown powerhead" ;) (use those words)

Tell him you've consulted a yamaha mechanic and the compression results indicate that the power needs to be rebuilt.

If he says that it's just a head gasket tell him what seakindly said "if it was just a head gasket you'd have already fixed the problem"

Tell him that your still interested in the boat if he's willing to drop the price significantly to reflect the blown powerhead and you'd like him to recalculate the price based on the average price of a rebuilt powerhead (including labor).

From iboats:

http://www.boatmotors.com/motorparts/index.cgi?flag=1&part=101&manufacturer=8&year=1993 &state=md&zip=&hp=200&disp=&cyl=

endor 107 :
HP CYL Description Price Core **S&H Subtotal
150-200 V6 Rebuilt, Rebuilt $3625.00 $400.00 Call Us $4025.00 View
Vendor 2 : For over 17 years we have been dedicated to providing our dealer network with the highest quality sterndrive and outboard components known in the industry.

HP CYL Description Price Core **S&H Subtotal
200 6 Rebuilt $3047.06 $500.00 $136 $3683.56 View
200 6 Rebuilt, Prov200 $3047.06 $500.00 $136 $3683.56 View
Vendor 3 : After 17 years of continual growth, we have achieved recognition in the industry for excellence in quality of workmanship and product integrity.

HP CYL Description Price Core **S&H Subtotal
200 V6 Rebuilt, 3.544 bore, 4 post, large crank $3432.19 $750.00 Free $4182.19 View
Vendor 4 : After more than 10 years supplying marine customers with more than 50,000 high-quality remanufactured engines we have become a world leader in two-stroke engine remanufacturing

HP CYL Description Price Core **S&H Subtotal
175-200 V6 Rebuilt $3373.75 Core First Free $3373.75 View
200 V6 Rebuilt $3373.75 Core First Free $3373.75 View

[bigshrimpin]

EDS Marine Superstore Prices:

http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/yard_sale_motors.htm

4 stroke Johnson 225 => $9999

[Seakindly]

CPK,

6300 - hull
1000 - trailer
7300 - total

Offer him 7000 to get it started. Pay more based on what you feel the motor is worth.

If you offer 8300, you have nowhere to go but up or home.

[bigshrimpin]

I'm probably repeating myself here . . . but

I think your best negotiating stance will come from presenting the broker with all the information (quotes, blown motor, etc. ) and letting him come up with a number.

v21 in "superclean" condition boat, motor, trailer = $9800

we now know that the engine is blown and needs to be rebuilt.
(present him with the quotes for a rebuild from iboats)

given all this information . . . . ask the broker what he thinks is a fair price for the rebuild.

This way your negotiating for the value of the boat based on the price of a rebuild - which is something you can get quotes for . . .

Keep in mind that the rebuild prices on iboats don't include labor.

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also if you do buy this boat . . . . you might consider a new 150 yamaha 2 stroke from eds for $6200 . . . . b/c you have all the controls, gauges and rigging, prop.

[Seakindly]

Nah ... too much work.

I'd offer him 7000, citing the blown powerhead not being worth crap. And if the broker disagreed, I would tell him to save me the trouble and take it off himself.

[chesapeake724]

Didn't call the guy today, got too busy at work. I'm hot on the hull, but I'm with you guys: the more I think about the motor, the lower my bid for the whole rig goes. During our first discussion, he said someone offered $6800 and he said that he didn't even bother the owner with bringing that figure to him. But then he didn't substantiate why the motor is worth something. Now that I've calmed down a bit about the boat, I think the best way is to start low and have a little fun with the show the salesguy puts on.

The adventure continues...

[Seakindly]

Friday is October 1st.

Time is on your side. 8)

[bigshrimpin]

At least you know your highest bidder and in the ball park with your offer. 7k can buy a nice v20 with a working engine . . . . just something to consider.

[chesapeake724]

Owner/seller won't budge below $9k. Voiced my concerns about the engine to the dealer/broker and he said if the seller won't move on the price, then they can't do anything about it. Too bad. The hull was worth fighting for, but $2-3k for a possible rebuild on top of a $9k sale price is a little much.

Just wanted to post an update, but more importantly, THANK YOU guys for feedback, advice, etc. The quest continues... ;)

[bigshrimpin]

Chesapeake - give him 6 months and he'll be begging you for the 7k offer. If anything time is on your side. Keep your eyes peeled b/c this is the best time of year to buy.

[reelapeelin]

Hey Guys... if Chesapeake wants to, let's send a bunch of offers to that broker for between 5500 and 6500 bucks...he'll come back and jump on the 7 grand like a sailor on a hooker... ;D

[macojoe]

I will do it!! ;D

Is that to much for you to handle money wise?? Reason I ask is Seabirds is for sale in that range and by the sounds and looks of it , It looks like a great boat!! It might be just what you need??