Alcohol additive to gasoline

[regidog]

Has anyone experienced any difference in performance since MTBE was removed and alcohol added to gasoline? I am alittle concerned because alcohol turns to H20 in the presence of air, and H2O in a boats tank is NO GOOD. Plus is not good for combustion engines,it corrodes lines etc..

[WiseGuy]

It does?

Another good reason to down those ales as fast as possible. ;D
I knew I was doing it right.

[willy]

I have not used my boat much since it went into effect here. But I am increasing my dose of Sea Foam to help with moisture and crud related problems induced by the ethanol along with changing and or emptying the seperator filter often. Don't know what else can be done

[regidog]

Another thing I've heard is it is extremely aggressive on aluminium. All you outboard guys take note.

[bigshrimpin]

regidog - where are you getting your information? ::)

[bigshrimpin]

The Negative Affects of Ethanol on Recreational Boat Fuel Systems

The National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) opposes the use of marine fuels that contain greater than 10% ethanol content by volume. This position is based on safety and durability concerns and supported by many well documented studies.

According to state boating registrations, there are over 12 million recreational boats in the United States. Boat builders utilize five types of materials to fabricate fuel tanks. These are aluminum, steel, cross-link polyethylene, high density polyethylene and fiberglass. For a rough estimate of today’s numbers, there are approximately four million boats that have aluminum fuel tanks; approximately seven million have steel or polyethylene tanks, and less than one million have fiberglass tanks. The data clearly indicates that the increased use of ethanol in gasoline has raised safety and durability issues for aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks.

Aluminum Fuel Tanks

In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem occurs when the ethanol content is increased.

There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late. .

The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option for the interior of a fuel tank.



Fiberglass Fuel Tanks

NMMA is in the early stage of evaluating the effects that ethanol in gasoline has on fiberglass tanks. Boat U.S., the boater advocacy association, recently issue a consumer alert reporting that owners of older yachts have experienced leaking fiberglass fuel tanks. There have also been reports of heavy black deposits on the intake valves of marine engines resulting in bent push rods, pistons and valves. Some of the preliminary analysis conducted by an independent lab found the deposits to be di-iso octyl phalate, a chemical found in the resin, gel coat and filler used to make fiberglass fuel tanks.

An initial theory is that when ethanol is introduced to the fuel tank the very small ethanol molecules diffuse into pores between the resin where they dissolve the unreacted phalates. Since the phalates are in solution they are able to pass through the fuel line filters. These phalates have exceptionally high temperature stability and remain intact when the fuel evaporates in the carburetor or undergo only partial decomposition in the combustion chamber thus creating the heavy black deposits on the engine’s intake valves.

Unlike aluminum, NMMA has yet to identify the effect that ethanol in fuel has on the tanks integrity or even the root cause of dissolved phalates. The theory is that it is being caused by ethanol and we know that ethanol dissolves phalates, but more testing is currently being conducted.

Conclusion

As stated in the opening paragraph, the NMMA has serious safety and durability concerns with the incremental increase in ethanol content in gasoline motor fuel. The majority of marine engines in use today are open loop systems that are designed, engineered and calibrated at the factory to operate with fuel containing either 10% MTBE or ethanol. Changing the fuel that these engines were designed, engineered and calibrated for will negatively effect drivability, exhaust and evaporative emissions, and potentially damage the components.

While these issues are significant, the boaters have a far more serious issue. The available data indicates that aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks and butyl rubber fuel hoses that are currently being used will fail if the ethanol content is increased to 20%. That is not an emissions issue; it is not a drivability or durability issue. It is an issue that needs to be taken far more seriously. It is a threat to the health and safety of the boaters in your state.

[willy]

I don't know what Regi heard BS but there was an article in one of the fishing mags the past couple of months on it. All regions are supplementing their fuel with a certain percentage of I believe ethanol.
End result is older two strokes especially will be experiencing lubrication, seal and fuel tank moisture and residue related problems. Some guys on this site have already had some problems along that line.
At least that is the info I remember

[bigshrimpin]

I hear ya . . . but my feeling on this situation is that all this whining is general frustration and displaced anger over high fuel prices. I can believe that some very poorly maintained two stroke engines may be having issues, but I seriously doubt that this fuel is destroying newer (25 years old and newer) gaskets and hoses that are rated for alcohol.

[regidog]

The article is in The Fisherman (New Jersey/Delaware Bay) entitled Ethanol and You- A Special Report. dated 7-6-06 #27. I will see if I can find a copy for all to read, but BigShrimpins post doesn't give a warm and fuzzy feeling either.

[msbhammer]

Sea Foam. This is the second time someone said to get it. Went to West Marine today and they never heard of it. Is this a additive that helps against water in the fuel ?? better performance ?

[willy]

Yes Hammer it is. It helps remove moisture from your tank. It's primary purpose I believe is to remove harmful deposits in your cylinders especially carbon and in your carbs and or fuel injectors.
It comes very highly recommended by some of the mechanics around here and many guys on THT and other sites have been using it for years.
I don't know what else it does but those are the main reasons I use it. A good friend of mine who has been around boats and engines for 60 years says that he has heard nothing but good things and seen nothing but good results from it's extended use.

[regidog]

A different article, published by the EPA. It states that water present in the gasoline at above 0.5% will strip the ethanol and in two strokes will compete with the oil additive, which MTBE doesn't do. This coincides with Willys remarks about two stokes. Its worth the read.
www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

[WiseGuy]

But what about the boat drinks damn it! Get your priorities straight.

[bigshrimpin]

Thanks for posting that article. Basically confirms my belief that people are nuts and this ethanol whining is another Y2K killer bees situation.

The article as I read it . . . . says it would take YEARS before phase seperation in e10 happens from exposure to air. Assuming that phase seperation occurs (which would take years) The water/ethanol part of fuel that has experienced phase seperation is an issue for two stroke lubrication (or operation if there is enough water). Since it would take YEARS and most of us have fuel water seperators to remove this part of the fuel . . . it should be a non-issue.

[bigshrimpin]

Am I reading this article correctly???

[Blue_Runner]

I think he is referring to Wiseguy's post. ;) Read it again. 2nd post...I think I know why they call him Wiseguy ::) ;D

[msbhammer]

So is it worth buying or a waiste of money ??

[bigshrimpin]

I caught that . . . he's steps ahead of all of us.

Regi - I not trying to bust your chops too bad here. Your a good guy to warn us all. I think folks have gotten carried away with the hype around ethanol and carelessly published articles full of misinformation. This is huge disservice to all of us who believe the writer and editor know what they are talking about . . . It's terribly irrespondsible for these magazines to pump fear into the public when they can't even get their "facts" straight.

[bigshrimpin]

So is it worth buying or a waiste of money ??


SeaFoam is a good additive for your fuel and will clean off the carbon build up on your pistons, rings, (and valves if you have a 4 stroke) it the same idea as ring free or carbon guard. The other method for decarbing a motor is by using a product like powertune.

[msbhammer]

Thanks Shrimp. 8)

[Mulv80]

Hammer, I think Advance Auto Parts carries Sea Foam. Its available in a an aerosol can which is labeled "Deep Creep" this is what you want if you plan on decarbing your engine directly through the carb throats. Or if you prefer to add it to the tank than its available in a regular can that you can add it to the fuel system.

[Geekie1]

You can get Sea Foam and Deep Creep at NAPA also. NAPA carries alot of marine related items.

[regidog]

No offense taken BigPimpin. I simply was concerned about accumulating additional h20 in my tank and having problems at sea. By the way, you are correct in saying it would take years for ethanol to pull water out of the air, but my concern is simpler. Existing water in gas tanks will cause the ethanol to phase separate, meaning you will be running low octane fuel and not know it. Also water commonly exists in tanks at gas stations, you could be buying gas that has already phase separated. Low octane in high RPM outboards is a concern.

PS: I am a chemist who works in the environmental industry. This is my profession.

[Mac_Attack]

For a moment there I thought you slept at a Red Roof Inn last night!



Just kidding! Thanks for the info . Billy Mac ;D

[willy]

Big Pimpin LMFAO you guys are funny

BS it's not just a scare based on a rumor, I have talked to my friends at the marina and one of the biggest Boat Dealers on the east coast, they have already seen ethanol based problems and have diagnosed it directly to it's use. Some very large and expensive boats are also being hit with problems and a bunch of little guys like me. I have never been one to run around waiting for the sky to fall but there is definetly some type of problem and I would like to take whatever precautions I can.

And Hammer what BS said is right on the money, the difference is whether you want to decarb once or twice a year depending on your use and season or do you want to use something to keep it decarbed all the time. Thats the route I went and I also like the idea that it cleans your carbs while being used prevents deposits and build ups there and helps to eliminate moisture in your tank. So its all good if you know what I mean ;)

[parishht]

Is Star-Tron the same as Sea Foam???

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/234220/0/0/fuels%20additive/All_2/mode+matchallpartial/0/0

[bigshrimpin]

Regi - I'm curious what evidence california presented to show we don't need an oxygenators in our fuel.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/7934/7934notw4.html

http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-ethanol-8-6-03.htm

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/ddown.cgi?afdc/WHATS_NEW/459/1/0

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/02/16/BAG04H9IQG1.DTL

[regidog]

It seems their arguments are more emissions based. California has the one toughest Environmental Protection Agencies in the country. Do not get me wrong I am concerned about the effects of either additive but I like to do my homework to avoid problems in the future, especially when it cuts down on my time to fish!!! It seems sea foam, filling tank all the way in winter, and regular checking of water separtor is the best solution.to date. I happen to have an I/O so I am less concerned about engine wear. Looks like Willy had it licked from the start of the post.

[willy]

Parish I don't really know, definetly a diffrent product line but they reportedly do the same thing, except it says it does it for twelve months, I don't understand that. Sea Foam treats a certain amount of gas, just like oil/fuel mix.

[phester]

I think what they're sayin' Willy is that if you dont burn the treated fuel right away, or soon, it still remains effective for up to a year

[willy]

OH ???