VT Shooting

[turbinedoctor]

Have you guys heard about the shooting at Virgina Tech yet. That was a silly question, you would have to be asleep not to have heard. My heart goes out to the families involved.

In the ton of news reports I have been watching, I heard the Virgine flag was ordered to fly at half staff. This reminds me of a web site where you can request to be notified when the flags are ordered to half staff. http://www.petersonflags.com/half_staff_info.htm

[p-vaugh7]

heard about it all day. BIG tech fan. have several friends there. all but one accounted for still waiting on one to get in touch with their family.. he was an engineer major which is the classes that were hit.. hope he is ok. also have a really close girl friend that had applied i think this swayed her desicion i hope because i think it would add to me already worrying about her everynight. much prayers to those victims families

[willy]

I know better than to second guess when all the facts are not in but can some one here with some Lawman experience or just some good old fashion common sense tell me how in the h@ll does a guy go on a shooting in one building and two hours later go on a rampage in another bldg. on the other side of the campus and they only thing that was done was to send an email out about it >:(
Where in the h@ll were all the uniforms and a full blown lock down, you had a shooting multiple vics and a suspect on the loose and they sent out an email. OMG
Thirty kids are dead they sent out a f@ckin email thru the school email system telling them there was an incident in a bldg.
I had a fight Agg Assualt at a school when I was a watch commander there was supposed to be someone with a knife running around and I had everyone I could grab by the short hairs there and mutual aid from other PD's and had the entire part of town on a lock down, I had pairs of guys going thru the school bldg's on a hunt down.
This piece of sh!t went into one bldg and then left, went and armed himself up and into another bldg and went on a rampage. No one around.
Those poor kids, God rest their souls :'(

[parishht]

My personal opinion, campus cops are like mall rent a cops,
when there is no trouble, they talk big, like they are statey's,
but when trouble breaks out, it's Barney Fife mode.

[willy]

Something terribly wrong in the way that was managed from the outset happened there, of that I have no doubt. And I say that because there was way too much time elapsed without a major man hunt and lock down in progress.

[p-vaugh7]

I believe that it has been brought out that the shooting in the West AJ hall was a domestic dispute and is now being said that it is not related to the killing spree in the engineering hall.. since it was just a dispute there was no need to lockdown the whole school beings that the suspect in that inncident fled the area.. and the AJ hall was put on lockdown the instant the shooting had happened.. i was argueing the same about it untill i found out its two seperate incidents and no related in anyway.. havent had an update since last night so that may have changed again..

[TunaHead]

A lot of agency's are going to learn from this. I live in a small university town. The headline in the paper today wasn't about the shooting it was about the University Police Chief's response.
http://www.eurekareporter.com/

I also need to address the rent-a-cop issue. I don't know how it is at any other university but here locally almost all of the university officers are street cops who have transferred from other departments (drawn by higher pay/benefits). That said, it is NOT the same job as working the streets. What complicates matters even more (at least here) is that the university staff and student population as well as most of the surrounding community have an EXTREMELY LIBERAL mentality. This results in almost everything the UPD does as having very politically correct overtones.

TH

[willy]

My son who's in Penn State just called me, one of his good friends from high school, his best friends girlfriend has a brother in Va. and he is one of the kids killed there, he played ball with my son and his father was my sons football coach.
How do you explain to anyone what this sick evil b@stard did.
Say a prayer for all our kids tonight, wherever they are

[Gator_Bait]

I believe that it has been brought out that the shooting in the West AJ hall was a domestic dispute and is now being said that it is not related to the killing spree in the engineering hall.. *since it was just a dispute there was no need to lockdown the whole school beings that the suspect in that inncident fled the area.. and the AJ hall was put on lockdown the instant the shooting had happened.. i was argueing the same about it untill i found out its two seperate incidents and no related in anyway.. havent had an update since last night so that may have changed again..

I think they are saying that they have not absolutely stated the 2 are related but that one of the 2 guns found was used to kill people in both locations so it is reasonable to assume that the same idiot was involved in both situations, with #1 still perhaps being a domestic situation....or at least that's how I read the news today.

Bad situation all around, no matter what at this point hindsight will lead to lots of speculation. But last night when they said they had a "person of interest" that was NOT in custody....I think that told that they had a pretty good idea it was same idiot at both locations...sad day for Tech and everyone that's for sure!
:( :(

[reelapeelin]

This the 1st thing came to mind when I woke up today...so it's been a kinda sad day although I don't personally know anyone involved, I can't begin to imagine the feelings of the parents, brothers, sisters and all family members devastated by one deranged moron...

Lots of questions to be answered...

Was this guy legal in U.S.?
Why the two hour lag?
Did VT get only the level of security they were willing to pay for?
More I can't even think of...

Sad day for our country, no doubt...

[Hammerhead]

This may not be PC but, I think it may be time authorties consider allowing select teachers and even some students to CCW on campus. Naturally special training would be called for but, At least the good guys would have an even chance. Just a thought.

[charlie_the_tuna]

y'know, everybody who wasnt there is an expert.
i think we should blame the republicans.
maybe we should blame the NRA.
or how about charleton heston.
we need gun control.

maybe somebody should blame the piece of sh!t who carried out this vile act of hate.

nah. we can find somebody else to blame.

instead of placing it squarely where it belongs we must find a suitable scapegoat.

how about imus.

the media runs the world so just let them settle on who is to blame and start there.

[TunaHead]

TunaHead's gripe:
Part of the problem with current society is the 24/7 media coverage. News "reporters" who can competently read a teleprompter are suddenly forced to cover a developing situation with nothing more than limited information. Despite this they have to fill air time and so are forced to speculate and babble on... "What if this, or What if that..." The dead weren't even tallied and they were already trying to asess blame.

Ok... enough of that. I finally had to turn off the boob-tube. Went out to the garage and used the palm sander on the new (used) teak swim platform for Sla'inte that I got from these guys:
http://www.shipwreckusedparts.com/index.htm
TH

[turbinedoctor]

I'm all for open and concelled carry. It is obivious that not allowing it did not stop this shooting or any other in the past.

If it were allowed they would be trying to figure out whose bullet and which one killed the bad guy instead of how many are dead.


Thats my thoughts weather you like it or not.

[msbhammer]

Turbin, not to be a high jacker here, but was looking at your gallery and seen that bunker garage that a tree landed on. Is that your garage ??

[parishht]

Hey Tuna, great find, but use this link instead:

http://www.shipwreckusedparts.com/

I don't know about anyone else, but when I click yours, I get an error.

[Stinky_Hooker]

y'know, everybody who wasnt there is an expert.
i think we should blame the republicans.
maybe we should blame the NRA.
or how about charleton heston.
we need gun control.

maybe somebody should blame the piece of sh!t who carried out this vile act of hate.

nah. we can find somebody else to blame.

instead of placing it squarely where it belongs we must find a suitable scapegoat.

how about imus.

the media runs the world so just let them settle on who is to blame and start there.


Bravo!! Well said CTT! We think alot alike!! 8)

[randlemanboater]

First of all, I am praying for all involved in that mess.

Being a cop, I have been to some bad scenes, and I know how the worst ones stick in your mind. The people who had to deal with that scene will carry it with them forever.

As for all the finger pointing, that is just human nature, we want to know what happened and we want someone alive to blame. The guy to blame is dead so people are searching for something else.

I saw an interview on our local news with a kid who lives in the dorm where the first shooting happened. He said that he recieved an email from his RA (residence assistant) at 0815 about the shooting in the dorm.

I think that is probably as fast as the wheels can turn in that situation.

Also, from what I can gather, the police thought that it was either a murder/suicide, or a domestic type thing and they had the third party stopped and were interviewing him at the time so I bet they didn't think there was any threat to anyone else.

As for campus security, or security anywhere, there is no way to prevent someone who wants to bring something (gun, drugs, anything) into anywhere they want to take it. The screeners at the airport miss test items constantly (they detect about half on average), our prisons are full of weapons and drugs, there are guns on high school and middle school campuses everyday.

I carry a gun everyday at work, most of the time I carry when I am off duty as well. Not so much for my protection, but so that I can intervene if I every find myself faced with this type of situation.

There has been a lot of talk in my local media about outlawing guns again, the truth is, I know there were people in that building who own guns and are capable of using a gun and had they been allowed to legally carry their gun on campus, they would have stopped that slaughter long before it ended.

Bottom line, have a relationship with Jesus, pray for peace, be prepared for when you may have to save yourself, your family, or a stranger from the evil that is becomming more and more a part of our world.

OK, I'm done.

[parishht]

A question for all the lawmen:

Has there ever been a study that shows the difference between legally
owned guns and the amount of illegally used guns
in crimes?

My point in this is a statement I have heard many times,
if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.
No I am not a member of NRA or any other group.
I am just John Q. Public.

[randlemanboater]

A question for all the lawmen:

Has there ever been a study that shows the difference between legally
owned guns and the amount of illegally used guns
in crimes?

My point in this is a statement I have heard many times,
if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.
No I am not a member of NRA or any other group.
I am just John Q. Public.

I don't pay attention to most "studies" cause whoever does them can make em say whatever they want.

But in my 19 years of dealing with criminals, most of the ones with guns obtained them illegally, either by stealing them or just buying them on the street. A very common charge when I find a gun on someone is "possesion of a firearm by a convicted felon". The bad guys are BAD, they don't follow the rules so it doesn't matter what the rules are.

Now we could start making them stay in prison for doing their crimes, but we are all going to have to pony up the money to build more prisons to do that.

I do believe that if a guy knew that he was going to prison for 10 years for having a stolen gun, then he might not do it, but as it is, the first 2 or 3 times he is caught, he is told, "now if you do it again, you are gonna be in trouble", which aint true, until he kills someone, them he might have to stay in for 10 years.

The only way to keep guns out of their hands would be to get rid of all of the guns. And that aint gonna happen unless the Communists take power.

[reelapeelin]

This might explain the delay...although I believe it should have been lockeddown immediately...


Police attempt to rationalize their two-hour delay
From The New York Times:

And new information emerged that may help explain a fateful two-hour delay by university officials in warning the campus of a gunman at large. According to search warrants and statements from the police, campus investigators had been busy pursuing what appears to have been a fruitless lead in the first of two shooting episodes Monday.

After two people, Emily Jane Hilscher, a freshman, and Ryan Clark, the resident adviser whose room was nearby in the dormitory, were shot dead, the campus police began searching for Karl D. Thornhill, who was described in Internet memorials as Ms. Hilscher’s boyfriend.

According to a search warrant filed by the police, Ms. Hilscher’s roommate had told the police that Mr. Thornhill, a student at nearby Radford University, had guns at his town house. The roommate told the police that she had recently been at a shooting range with Mr. Thornhill, the affidavit said, leading the police to believe he may have been the gunman.

But as they were questioning Mr. Thornhill, reports of widespread shooting at Norris Hall came in, making it clear that they had not contained the threat on campus. Mr. Thornhill was not arrested, although he continues to be an important witness in the case, the police said.

Most murders are committed by people who know the victim. The closer the relationship the better the suspect. If a man is murdered the first person the cops will look at is his wife; if a woman is killed like Emily Hilscher the first person the police will suspect, in the absence of compelling information to the contrary, will be her boyfriend.

[charlie_the_tuna]

there you go.

everybody who was not there is an expert.

they know exactly what should have been done.

[Pipe_Dream]

Someone said to me how she couldn't believe that most states today actually issue permits for people to carry concealed weapons. She said it's no wonder there is so much gun violence out there. I had to point out to her that criminals and psychos aren't applying for or obtaining permits . . . they carry guns without permits. Only law-abiding citizens can get a permit.

[Blue_Runner]

Who needs a gun anyhow? Anybody can get hold of a couple of gallons of gas and a book of matches. With the doors chained shut this could have been even more deadly than with guns. Bottom line is if someone wants to kill alot of people and is THAT determined, I believe they will find a way to get it done.

Its a very sad and difficult subject for sure.

[parishht]

Like hijacking a plane and flying it into a building.

[reelapeelin]

Someone said to me how she couldn't believe that most states today actually issue permits for people to carry concealed weapons. She said it's no wonder there is so much gun violence out there. I had to point out to her that criminals and psychos aren't applying for or obtaining permits . . . they carry guns without permits. Only law-abiding citizens can get a permit.



Unfortunately too many think about it in the same terms as your friend...hope you pointed out background checks are done B4 carry permits issued... ;) ...

[willy]

In a one year period following Florida's passing of the shall issue carry law, violent crime which had been on a steady upturn to all new highs each year fell 40 %.
You all may remember the rash of tourists, especially non english speaking tourists that became targets of rape robbery and assault in Fla around that time. That was due to the fact that the sh!tbirds doing the crimes did not want to confron average joe or josephine in Fla anymore because several hundred thousand of them were armed and knew how to shoot.
In the state of Vermont, all you have ever needed, because of their state constituion is a drivers license, now a criminal background instant check and be age 21 to legally carry concealed their violent crime rate is the lowest or one of the lowest per capita of any state in the world.
Thirty nine states have passed shall issue laws over the past decade and each and every one of them has seen a dramatic fall in their violent crime rates.
These states have also not had any issues with licensed carry people commiting any crime.
The state of Fla. had two licensed holders commit what would be considered a crime with their guns in the over a decade long licensing program. Neither of those cases involved a death.
There has never ever been a corrolation ever produced or shown that indicates that high weapon possesion levels among the population produced high violent crime rates.
In fact it has been proven again and again in hundreds of private and goverment studies that the exact opposite is the truth.
The state of Virginia decided to start charging (with the cooperation of the Federal District Attorney) those arrested with using a firearm in a violent crime or those illegally possessing a firearm in violation of the hundreds of federal statutes. During the first year of these successful prosecutions violent crime and weapon possession of firearms by criminal dropped by 60% and has stayed there for over a decade.
All the civil rights sh!tbirds the ACLU and other liberal organizations (you know the ones who protect our liberties granted by the Bill Of Rights, except the 2nd Amendmant of course) filed suit to stop the program. They lost. You see there is no parole in the violation of federal laws. Sh!tbirds had to serve there time. What a concept.
And in the wake of this horrible tragedy, these same liberal sh!tbirds are using the deaths of these beautiful kids to try to advance their political agenda about gun control.
It's not gun control theywant, they want people control.
If there was ever a classic, dramatic example of what the liberal agenda is and the results of it all you ever have to do is look at those poor people of New Orleans when Katrina hit. That piece of sh!t they call the mayor ordered the police to go home to home and confiscate legally owned firearms (from their not supposed to have roster of legal firearms ownership) and they did. They left hundreds and hundreds of people powerless to defend themselves from roving gangs of scum.
That action right there tells you why the framers of the constitution made the legal ownership of firearms the Second amendment in the constitution. To give us the ability to protect ourselves from an criminal or a criminal government.
There is such a documented mountain of evidence to support legal possession to even try to argue otherwise is to close your eyes to reason, logic and the human condition. Evil exists, it exits world wide. It thrives where the population has neither the will or the ability to stop it.
it won't be at the Schultz residence. It will be stopped at my door. And I I will not lose a moments sleep over it.
As a matter of fact I will probably go and have a cocktail and look at the W.E.T thread awhile.

;)

[TunaHead]

I want to reply but can't think of anything to add Willy.

Except of course that if you stop evil at your door Hammer will want pictures.

[willy]

Don't worry Tuna I'm sure I will be all over the newspapers, especially the NY Times and the Daily News as the mad man from NJ that dared to protect his family.
You see I am not one of the media elite, I actually do not have a advance team of armed individuals to protect me, like the team of armed individuals who protect Mayor Bloomberg or Govenor Corzine or even that walking on two leg pig Rosie O'Donnell. I am actually responsible for my own protection and the protection of my family.
It is a sensitive subject for me, for over thirty years when I would encounter an honest citizen who armed himself to protect his family or his own life I cut the fellow slack, told him to do something with his illegal firearm and walked away like it never happened.
That would get me fired in the peoples republic of NJ if they ever found out.
I remember reading the synopsis of the shooting that occurred in Texas several years ago. A police officer stopped a vehicle at an intersection. Unknown to him the sh!tbird he stopped was wanted for multiple armed robberies. He was just doing a motor vehicle stop. There were several vehicles stopped at the cross street for the red light where he stopped the car.
All of a sudden the driver stepped out of his vehicle and started firing while advancing on the officer. Had him pinned and wounded.
Next thing he remembered he heard shots coming from different directions. Turns out being good Texans there were two cars ( civilians ) that were stopped at the intersection and had their legally owned handguns with them and opened fire on this low life piece of sh!t and mortally wounded him.
I read the first hand account from the Police Journal from the officer, those people saved his life.
If that low life in Virginia ran into a legally armed citizen during his assault on those kids many lives could have been saved.
That ***ish Professor, a true hero may not of had to block the door with his body and my sons friend may have been coming home for summer break in a few weeks and not be on the front page of our NJ papers today.
I know that is conjecture. I know that chances are he would not run into anyone so armed. I just feel that if citizens have the ability to protect themselves fewer of these things will happen, and even depressed deranged people like this wack job in Va. would be concerned about who he might run into and not think it is like a video game or movie and he can just roam around and empty magazines at will.
When I was a younger fellow another wack job took a high power rifle into a tower in texas and started shooting people all over the campus. It was not the Police that kept him pinned down and limited his ability to kill more it was several citizens who lived in the area who owned there own rifles and kept him from doing even more harm.
All of these examples are of men and women who had the will to confront evil and the tools to do it.
All right, I have gotten it off my chest. And if anyone see's Rosie O'Donnel around please choke her by the throat until she don't talk no more. And this piece of crap named Tom Daly from the Daily News in NY. too.

[reelapeelin]

The VT Killer got his last wish...NBC and now every network affiliate everywhere, airing the videos and pictures he sent to them...I don't think those EVER should have made the airways...studied by police and the like, but never give him the satisfaction (even after he's dead) of airtime...now every deranged moron w/ a gun believes he can go out the same way ::) ...

[parishht]

Wow, Willy, gotta agree with everything you said.

I also feel that profiling should be used in every case.
I also feel that notification to parents, work, schools and
police of people who have been to profesionals for
evaluation of eratic or socially unacceptable behaiours
should be mandatory.
The profesional does not have to say why, just notify
them that a particular individual should be watched carefully.
Just the fear of the notification should make people think twice.

My CEO used to work as an emplotyment screener
and you would not believe the scumbags that get hired
and then when the company finds out it's too late.
i.e. sex offenders working around women.

[willy]

Agreed, there needs to be a process that works better at identifying people who have a problem, and a system of monitoring the successful conclusion of the treatment of that problem.
The biggest single problem this country has with any type of security issue from Bin Laden to this deranged student is we are a free people. I, rather we insist on it. And thanks to the Bill of Rights I can speak about it, gather with friends and discuss it, AND BE ABLE TO STOP THE GOVERNMENT FROM TAKING IT FROM ME, by force if needed.
And I can be secure in my home and person from unreasonable intrusions.
We more than any other nation in history are free from our government. It's what sets us apart, it's what binds us whether we are white black asian european, we are free and our founding fathers gave us the Amendments in the Constitution to garauntee it as long as we do our part and insure it's not taken away.
In our society and with our freedoms there will always be times when it costs us more than we expect.
Trouble is I don't want the government decideing who is crazy and needs to be institutionalized without a citizen based check and balance. They have had that in many countries, modern societies in power today and it is used as tool to eliminate unwanted people.
Tough, balancing things when so much is at stake, like at VaTech.

[parishht]

This is coming around in an e-mail:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g18/parishht/GunOwners.jpg

I don't belong to any group,
but I agree with the sentiment.

and the TV made me watch porno
and the radio made me listen to music I don't like.
and on and on.

living is made up of choices, and one of the best is to choose not to.

[randlemanboater]

And if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[reelapeelin]

There are many checks and balances already in place...the head of the English Dept at VT had already picked this guy out as being severely depressed and violent in nature...she went several places looking for something that could be done w/him and found no help...Willy's right...we are a free nation and it's going to be very difficult weighing the importance of our individual rights against the safety of our loved ones...but in the case of Hui, there was ample prior evidence ...but no single entity to put it all together and act on it...but there ya go...as soon as you enable an entity such as that, the gov't is deciding who's crazy and poses a risk to society...

...at any rate, airing his pix all over TV, IMO, is not the way to go...certainly not this early...

[willy]

The media is stumbling all over themselves to air these video's and pics.
I want to be informed, but there seems to be no end to the sensationlism of a dispicable act. They sound like they are amazed and entertained by it instead of using a tone of sorrow and horror and portraying this murderer for what he was.
It almost feels when I am watching the news pieces on it that it has an air of a movie review of the latest Shwarznegger shoot um up.
I don't hear the over running thought of how dispicable the act is, and that scares me.