1st post, looking for advice

[earle]

As title say's my first post. Was really surprised to see V-20s had their own forum. A ton of info available when needed. Cool.
That said, I'm starting some repairs/upgrades to my first V-20. I believe it's an 83. A marine mechanic I know is going thru the wiring and replacing any thing that is suspect. The only other thing I want to address this season is the front deck. At some point in time hardware was removed and the screw hole not properly sealed. The result was predictable. I'm replacing the rotted plywood with 3/4 marine and will glue to the top with epoxy, then seal with glass.
My question is how to brace the deck in order to make it strong enough to stand (fish) on? I'm thinking a couple of white ash stringers running crossways glassed to the sides of the hull.
If anyone has beefed their deck up to take a couple of hundred pounds, I'd appreciate their input. Thanks in advance.
Earl

[phatdaddy]

welcome, i've got a soft spot on mine also, i just don't step there. i'm assuming your going to try and fix from underneath. i think the only supports originally were the ones that outlined the sliding hatch.
maybe somebody who has been down this road before will chime in.

take plenty of pics

[earle]

You are correct. The supports are pretty light duty. Okay, I guess if no real weight is on the deck, but I want this boat as a primary fishing boat, so the front deck is just wasted area if it can't support an average size angler. There are probably several way's to address it, but I want to keep it simple, and no matter what, the deck needs support to carry any reasonable weight. If anyone has had good results with their method, I'm open to suggestions.

[smokeonthewater]

3/4" ply is not needed.... 1/2" glassed in and a couple 1 1/2" strips of the same 1/2" ply on edge and glassed in for braces will be more than enough IMHO.

[earle]

Fair enough. Is 1/2" plywood sturdy enough to carry the weight of an average size guy? Not trying to be a wise guy, I just have a hard time envisioning it being heavy enough to carry a load spread over 6'. Would certainly simplify things tho.

[SkunkBoat]

You are going at it from the top? How many squares?(The deck is made of squares of plywood). Pull off the carpeting if you haven't already an you can see the squares.
if you have the option of working from below.
you can cut off either the top skin or bottom skin. NOT BOTH!

Top means you have to fair it and paint and do pretty work. But its easy to access.
Bottom means you can do sloppy work but its a hard angle.

Bolt in a peice of angle aluminum across the bottom to reinforce...easy...

[earle]

I"ve gone at it from the bottom. Cut out the lower skin and removed all the plywood squares. Just finished grinding the excess epoxy off today. Gone as far as I can until Tuesday, when the stores open again. Pick-up the fibreglass etc and start stage 2. Never thot about a piece of angle, but makes sense. Thanks

[smokeonthewater]

You are building a bridge, not a concrete slab... The 1/2" ply sheet is only the deck of the bridge... The cross braces on edge are the framework.

If you have any doubt, build a braced test plank...

[earle]

You are building a bridge, not a concrete slab... The 1/2" ply sheet is only the deck of the bridge... The cross braces on edge are the framework.

If you have any doubt, build a braced test plank...

Never thot of it that way, but makes sense. Going to make a mock up tomorrow and see. Thanks

[smokeonthewater]

Keep in mind that in the boat it will be supported on almost all edges and that the glass will add a lot of strength.... I'd estimate that the finished product will be about twice as rigid as the test plank.

[scook]

Like Smoke says, it's a bridge. Any bridge, or simpler to visualize, a beam relies on tension and compression. When you stand on (load) a beam, the downward force tries to bend the beam down. That makes the bottom want to stretch and the top want to compress (get shorter). Fiberglass is is both hard (resists being compressed) and the fibers are strong (resist stretching).

Like he says, when you glass the bottom, particularly the support stringers, the reinforcing in the glass will add LOTS of strength. You do also want to adhere the plywood well to the fiberglass deck above, so that when the load makes it want to compress, it can't buckle (to get shorter) instead of staying in place and resisting compression.

[earle]

Keep in mind that in the boat it will be supported on almost all edges and that the glass will add a lot of strength.... I'd estimate that the finished product will be about twice as rigid as the test plank.

Good stuff. Built a "bridge" last night and it will be plenty strong enough. Just a couple of final questions.
The plywood I removed was dozens of 6"x6" pieces. Is there a reason for this, or can I replace them with 2 or 3 larger sections? I know plywood has a tendency to bow, but wouldn't adding support stringers stop that?
Also, should the supports be attached directly to the plywood and the whole thing glassed over, or glass the plywood first, then add the stingers and another layer of glass?
Sorry for the questions, but working on my back under the deck is a PITA, and I only want to do it once.
Thanks again for all the comments and advice.

[SkunkBoat]

the 6x6 pieces have 2 functions(so far as I know).
First, they lay flat when they build the deck upside down vs a large sheet that might be curled.
Second, they prevent water from one screw hole wicking from one end of the deck to the other.

btw, have you ever glassed upside down before? its not easy. especially a large surface. The glass is gonna want to droop and fall off.


Thinking about it...
I would probably use one piece, glass the bottom side on a table and let it cure.
then coat the rest with resin and let cure. Coat the cleaned inside top skin with resin and cure. then use thickened resin as adhesive, slather it on the top of your piece and push it up in place, hold in place with some screws from the top(try to use the holes for hardware that have to be there anyways). Then glass the inside edges.

ARe you using boaters resin(polyester) or WEST epoxy?

Poly is cheaper but I find that I can't make more than 4oz at a time or it gels in the cup before I'm done...I have a lot of hockey pucks!!! and you have to count drops when mixing hardener.
The fumes suck too.

WEST epoxy is very expensive but much more pleasant to use if you have the pumps

[smokeonthewater]

I would absolutely use epoxy... I get mine from Jamestown distributors.

If a single piece of ply will fit and lay correctly I would def go that route and def prefab as much as possible.

If you can build outside the boat and simply 'glue' in place you will be way ahead of the game.... The thought of glass work over my head, face, and chest makes me want to shoot myself..... Btw I have to do the same repair soon to my 26' carver.

[earle]

I would absolutely use epoxy... I get mine from Jamestown distributors.

If a single piece of ply will fit and lay correctly I would def go that route and def prefab as much as possible.

If you can build outside the boat and simply 'glue' in place you will be way ahead of the game.... The thought of glass work over my head, face, and chest makes me want to shoot myself..... Btw I have to do the same repair soon to my 26' carver.

Thank you (and Skunkboat). A quick measuring shows that it can be done in one piece. Going to go that route and hopefully save a lot of work and time.

[smokeonthewater]

Be sure to let me know if an armpit full of resin is as much fun as I think it is....

[Striper80]

An eye dropper works well to measure hardener when mixing poly resin and gelcoat. I use the leftover ones that have ml markings on them.

[scook]

One piece is definitely the easiest (as big a piece as you can get into the cabin) but you need to be sure the surface above is flat enough that the plywood will stick to the whole surface. Take a straight edge, a level, aluminum bar stock, etc., and check the surface for flatness so you know what you're dealing with.

When you dry fit the plywood, make some sticks the right length from scrap lumber to wedge in under it and have them handy when you goop it up to hold it firmly up against the overhead.

[earle]

One piece is definitely the easiest (as big a piece as you can get into the cabin) but you need to be sure the surface above is flat enough that the plywood will stick to the whole surface. Take a straight edge, a level, aluminum bar stock, etc., and check the surface for flatness so you know what you're dealing with.

When you dry fit the plywood, make some sticks the right length from scrap lumber to wedge in under it and have them handy when you goop it up to hold it firmly up against the overhead.

Thanks for the tip. Exactly what I was mulling over. I'm going to get 3 or 4 strait pieces of lumber, long enough to reach over the entire width of the top of the deck, and put a bit of weight on each end of them. Then when I fit the new piece underneath I can temporarily shim it using your suggested wedges. As long as the top strait edges remain flat on the deck, with no high/low spots, I should be okay.

[scook]

I'd brace it up so there's at least some hump in it - you don't want puddles on your deck.

[earle]

I'd brace it up so there's at least some hump in it - you don't want puddles on your deck.

I understand. I was thinking the same thing, but can't figure out how to do it, unless I glue the plywood up first and then glass the cross supports in place. Even then, will there be enough flex in the plywood to raise the centre line a bit after it's glued to the top?

[smokeonthewater]

Brace it up so it fits the shape of the deck exactly... Do not allow it to dry while bowed more than it should be...

If the deck is flat, so should the plywood be...

Cut the cross braces so that they exactly match the profile of the deck... Screw the deck piece to them and check that the profile has not changed.... Glass the assembly...

Then install in the boat with 3/16" peanut butter troweled on just like you would a floor tile....

Pre cut bamboo poles a few inches over length can then be bowed into place to firmly support it from the bottom and you can add weight from above if needed.

You can test the bottom support and weight system before gluing it together to make sure it's gonna work out.

You can also drill several 3/4" holes in the repair panel on say 18" centers to allow for both relief of the epoxy peanut butter and to manually verify that the panel is flush with the glass above it.

[earle]

Brace it up so it fits the shape of the deck exactly... Do not allow it to dry while bowed more than it should be...

If the deck is flat, so should the plywood be...

Cut the cross braces so that they exactly match the profile of the deck... Screw the deck piece to them and check that the profile has not changed.... Glass the assembly...

Then install in the boat with 3/16" peanut butter troweled on just like you would a floor tile....

Pre cut bamboo poles a few inches over length can then be bowed into place to firmly support it from the bottom and you can add weight from above if needed.

You can test the bottom support and weight system before gluing it together to make sure it's gonna work out.

You can also drill several 3/4" holes in the repair panel on say 18" centers to allow for both relief of the epoxy peanut butter and to manually verify that the panel is flush with the glass above it.

Thank you. Just what I needed to hear. Man, this forum is so cool.

[smokeonthewater]

I've put a bit of thought into this lately since I'm gonna have to do it soon.... Damn cool of you to come along and test all this out for me :-P

[earle]

I've put a bit of thought into this lately since I'm gonna have to do it soon.... Damn cool of you to come along and test all this out for me :-P

Happy to oblige. Appreciate the advice, just hope I don't have to report back on the resin in the armpit thing.

[scook]

Smoke's advice is better than mine - do what he says. My only caution is that if you do have a low spot (puddle) in the existing deck, be sure to take it out with your repair. Great idea drilling some holes to relieve the surplus goop and check that you're tight up under the existing deck.

[earle]

Smoke's advice is better than mine - do what he says. My only caution is that if you do have a low spot (puddle) in the existing deck, be sure to take it out with your repair. Great idea drilling some holes to relieve the surplus goop and check that you're tight up under the existing deck.

Okay gent's. Went to the big town yesterday and got all the stuff I need and am going to start cutting and dry fitting plywood today. One final question occurred to me, and you guy's probably know the answer.
The main sheet of plywood is pie shaped, about 70" x 40" at centre line. Is it realistic to try and cover the piece with thickened epoxy and still have time to fit it in place? The resin/hardener is Mas and the clerk told me I'll have about 30min. working time. Does that sound about right? I'm just wondering because I don't know how long to allow for spreading the stuff out? Don't want to run out of time before the wood is up and wedged into place. Thanks for any thots or tips.
Earl

[scook]

This isn't my area of expertise but a couple of thoughts come to mind. I've spread some floor covering adhesive and some thinset mortar with a notched trowel (like Smoke suggested) - it goes plenty fast, just be SURE you have enough mixed up to do the whole job. I can't imagine it taking you 5 minutes to do the spread. You might put some duct tape over the under side of the holes you've drilled in the plywood so you don't have to be careful about working around them spreading the resin and so it's not dropping in your armpits while you're initially getting it in place.

[smokeonthewater]

EDIT:
Nevermind the dumbass attack I previously posted here.....
:-/

[SkunkBoat]

MAS makes epoxy right? So you're using epoxy -thats good. When you glass the skin onto the piece you'll get a sense of the gel time. It won't change by adding filler. However, my experience is that afternoon gel times are much faster. I was starting my work in the morning at 70-75 degrees and by afternoon it was 85+.
Make a test batch of adhesive so you can guage the time and how much you need for the whole job. Its going to be a lot for a piece that size. You might want to mix multiple containers because larger batches get hot and kick faster.
But you will be pouring the whole batch onto the piece and spreading it quickly so that may not be such an issue.

I still suggest using a few well placed screws from the top to help hold the piece in place. Pre-drill the top skin and the screw will pull up the working piece. The holes for letting some squeeze out is an excellent idea. Just be careful because you are under it!!

Hmmmm? 70" x 40" is pretty big to hang upside down... I would think about cutting in 2 or 3 pieces. Smaller piece in the hard to reach area and gain experience with the process...

[smokeonthewater]

WHOOPS!

Yeah... I saw MAS and my peabrain registered MEK...

Yeah MAS makes epoxy DOH!

Keep in mind that the 30 minutes includes mixing time and it takes longer to mix in the thickener than just the epoxy... It will also vary with temperature... Warmer is faster.... It will kick faster in the mixing pot and take a bit longer once spread...

Make sure you prep the underside of the deck... Rough sanded and clean.

[earle]

Thanks guy's. Just my luck. Rained all day today. Gotta work tomorrow, and weather forecast say's rain thru the weekend. Sunday I leave for Florida for a week, so it looks like my repair job may come to a grinding halt for a bit. Why is weather report always rite when the forecast is lousy?

[smokeonthewater]

Just know you aren't alone.... The bow hatch on my new carver is in poor shape so I found a SMOKING deal on the clearance rack of my favorite local boat shop... $125 for a new old stock 20x20 hatch .... These things go for $450!

Well it had white frosted glass and I wanted smoked... He said we have a couple others in back and lo and behold there was a smoked one.... I snagged it and headed on my way....

Well I had measured the first one but not the second... Got home and racing the rain I pulled about 35 screws to get the hatch out of the bow and grabbed my new one... DOH!!!!!!!!!

It dropped right through the hole! 17x17!!!!

Dangit.... Too late to go back for the one that would fit now so had to put all those screws back in the old hatch...... OOPS!

[earle]

Well, may be able to make some headway afterall. Wife was able to score an awning from the rent-all that she does the books for, so I'm going to proceed, at least till Sat. night.
One final (hopefully) question occurred to me. If I proceed as planned and glass the bottom of the plywood BEFORE I glue it to the deck, will the wood still retain enough flex to contour to the shape of the deck? Standing on the trailer tongue last night I noticed the deck has a bow to it. High in the centre and bowed to the outer edges and sloping to the front. Not a deep bow, but still enough to make me realize the plywood is going to have to "give" to conform to the shape of the bow. Will it do so with the bottom glassed? As usual, thanks for input.
Earl

[smokeonthewater]

That's why I said to cut the ribs to the shape of the bow deck first, then attach them the the ply sheet, then verify that the assembly still matches the required shape before glassing it...

I would glass ALL sides if the new assembly before installing so it is fully sealed and simply needs glued in...

[SkunkBoat]

probably not. You might want to cut into smaller pieces so they follow the shape of the upper skin without having to bend them.. Not too small that you have a lot of upside-down glassing to do!

If you hold a firm straight edge across the inside you'll get a sense of where you need to have a "seam".

[scook]

No matter how big or small you cut the plywood, do what Smoke says - cut the ribs (little beams) to conform to the underside of the deck.

Doing this I'd called scribing. You either wedge the rib in place (just enough tension to hold it there) or have a helper hold it there. Since the deck humps up, the top ends of the ridge will be touching the underside of the deck and there will be a gap in the middle. Measure the gap, cut a small block of wood approx. 1" to 2" wide by the height of the gap and use it to space your pencil down from the underside of the deck. Holding the rib in place, mark the curve of the deck onto the rib, cut the curve in the rib and hold it back in place to test the fit - make adjustments if necessary and you have a rib that will make the plywood conform to the deck.

The rib has to be stiff/strong enough to hold a bend in the plywood without bending. Two things to consider: 1) plywood will only bend in one direction, not both directions at the same time (a compound curve). If this is a problem, you will need to cut the plywood - it probably isn't but you can tell easily. Drill,the holes in the plywood before you dry fit it to the deck - if you can't get it to go tight to the deck, that's probably the problem. 2) to make the plywood bend more easily, you can score the back (top surface, the side that contacts the deck) perpendicular to the direction you want to bend it. For 1/2" ply, cut a little less than 1/4" deep, 1/2" to 3/4" apart and feel how it bends. If you need a few more scores, you can add them. The resin,will fill the grooves and you'll still have a strong deck.

[scook]

Blasted automatic spelling - It IS called scribing, and the ends of the RIB will be touching.

[earle]

Blasted automatic spelling - It IS called scribing, and the ends of the RIB will be touching.

Good advice all. Cut the first piece this AM and rough fitting it now. Will start the scribing process shortly. I think the only "mistake" I.ve made so far, thanks to all the help on this forum, is assuming all I had to do was cut a couple pieces of plywood and stick em in place. Ha_ha.

[scook]

Yeah - just about everything about what you're doing is pretty simple in concept and REALLY difficult in the execution.

[phatdaddy]

take lots of pictures

[earle]

take lots of pictures

Trying to figure out how to post the work in progress. Actually accomplished some today. Got one section ready to glass and will try to get the second one ready tomorrow after work. It's going much smoother now that I realize it's not a one day job, at least for me. Work on one section at a time and get it right. Kind of neat actually.

[earle]

Things are progressing nicely, now that I'm paying more attention to detail, ha-ha. Need to do a bit of brainstorming tho. The next section to do is the main (front) section of the bow. As stated before it's about 80"w x 40" at centre line. Going to make a one piece template tomorrow and see if it fits thru the sliding hatch.
Any ideas if it doesn't? I know I can put it up in pieces, but then I've got to lay the skin on from up-side down, probably also in pieces. Exactly what I hope to avoid. All and any idea's welcome. Thanks
Earl

[smokeonthewater]

nah you would just glass each half and glass the cross brace... after the halves are in, mix up some thick PB with some cut up glass in it and putty the joint... then butter up the cross brace n glue it up... shoot a couple screws in if desired to hold it in place till it sets

[earle]

nah you would just glass each half and glass the cross brace... after the halves are in, mix up some thick PB with some cut up glass in it and putty the joint... then butter up the cross brace n glue it up... shoot a couple screws in if desired to hold it in place till it sets

Jeez, you know I actually thot of that, and then thot, nah, way to simple. Thank God for voice of experience. Left to my own device's I'd be trying to re-invent the wheel.

[SkunkBoat]

one way I found to glass upside down is to cover a piece of wood with clear packing tape. Neither epoxy nor poly sticks to packing tape! Glass your seam or use thickened as said above, then screw up the covered piece to hold it all in place. It will pop loose when the epoxy sets. Don't put the screws in epoxy!!! don't forget to use short screws...

[earle]

Well guy's, I made it back from Florida, fished out and eager to get back to the boat. Finished all the panels and they fit nicely. The bow section was to large to fit in one piece, so I made it in two sections and joined them with the cross braces. I glassed it as one piece and will cut it in two after it cures. I plan on installing them as two separate pieces initially, but will add jack braces to the existing ones where they are cut and then glass them over. Should help keep the original shape of the deck, I hope.
Once again, thanks for all the tips received.