many questions about repairing/replacing stringers

[carboncow]

Me and my buddy just picked up a 1988 V20 with a 225 Yamaha for close to nothing. When we drove 1000 miles to get her we were not surprised to find a soft sole around the t-top mounts. A surveyor on site gave the transom a thumbs up.

We spent this weekend stripping the center console, electronics, t-top and all hardware off...and will begin cutting the floor this week. Doing some knocking the stringers has me concerned but I"m very untrained on this topic. I know the sound of a good "ping" for testing transoms but hear quite a bit of "thud" on the stringers and a few spots seem delaminated when pressed on. I'm sure they will need repaired/replaced.

As we being to cut the sole I'll include many photos so you guys can assist but for now I'll just include a few links to galleries of the pre purchase and what we have seen to this point.

Here are my questions:

1) I did a quick drill of the stringer about 5 inches from the transom and 1-2 inches up from hull...seems to be no wood in there!!?!? Furthur up yes. Is this by design or should wood be butted to transom and floor in all areas before glassing?

2) I see on so many writeups/photos that many guys just cut the tops of the stringers and extract the wood. I've read about roto-tools and such but does this save any time/money? or just used as a guide/holder for the new stringer wood?

3) if the glass sides are left and wood extracted is it easy to lay the new wood down in there...shouldn't the wood be resined to the new glass or can there be air space...very confused by this technicque?

4) Do most of you take the whole stringer out or only the soft parts (keep cutting till you find good wood)? Do you have to "toe in" the new wood if you only take a part out?

I've done a lot of reading over the last two weeks and many many youtube videos but still have so many questions!

Here are photos of the pre purchase: http://www.carboncow.net/Other/Boats/1988-Wellcraft-V20-Steplift/

Here are photos of where I'm at this weekend: http://www.carboncow.net/Other/Boats/V20-Restoration-Photos/

I'll embed photos into the thread as we start cutting the sole this week. For now I have the image of the tank out. No foam. It's very strange that the tank has a hatch but cannot fit thru the hatch...we still had to cut the lip off the hatch hole. to get it out...lifted right out.



On another note I love these hulls...always wanted one but it's very interesting to see where builders cut corners and some of the questionable techniques. I can see why there are so many opinions on these boats on iboats.com and other forums! The part that really blows my mind is that 100% of everything added after the build by previous owners/dealers has no protection in cuts and screw holes...and so much bad wood because of it. Even a few of the original build cuts are questionable about sealing.

Was build quality better in the earlier boats, mid years or last years?

[phatdaddy]

welcome, nice find, looks like your getting a good start. friend just cut the tops off of the stringers, layed in new wood, poured in fresh resin &glassed the tops. working well so far.

as far as better years, i think it depends on the day it was built more that the year. the worst thing wellcraft did was not seal the drain holes where the stringeres meet the transom

good luck

[carboncow]

I don't even think I saw any drain wholes where where the stringer meets the transom...I'll have to look again. What builder doesn't seal whole!?!?! But I digress...

So are most guys having to router out the wood or does it often pull out from delimitating from the glass?

Or is it best to just cut out that which is soft only? My guess is it's most likely to be soft on the bottom so if we cut the tops and it looks hard it may still be soft at the bottom, correct?

[cterrebonne]

welcome, nice find, looks like your getting a good start. friend just cut the tops off of the stringers, layed in new wood, poured in fresh resin &glassed the tops. working well so far.

as far as better years, i think it depends on the day it was built more that the year. the worst thing wellcraft did was not seal the drain holes where the stringeres meet the transom

good luck

Yep, if not for that, the stringers would last a lot longer than they do.

[phatdaddy]

cc, go to the v-20 gallery, page 3, bottom middle, vic's v20. he is the one i am talking about. he never used the seacast, went with wood.

[carboncow]

OK, we started to cut the sole out today...several photos and a few questions...

We are going about 2 inches off the entire perimeter of where the sole meets the inner gunwhale. I found a couple areas of rot that still exist in that last inch or so all the way to the where it turns into the glass of the wall. Are we OK to dry these areas, dig out anything that wants to come and fill that with a bondo type product? Again this only a 2 or 3 areas of a few inches at best.

If any areas are wet but not rotted are we OK to just get them dry and move forward? I'm talking about small areas (several inches at most) in corners or areas we'd prefer not to cut much more.

See Image A and Image B

On Image C you'll see much of the sole out showing the foam inside. This foam appears to be in good shape. It's hard, 98% dry, solid to walk on even and no smell. Can we salvage this and just cut out enough to glass in new stringers?

See Image C

OK...we drilled more holes and the stringers are shot inside....what is coming out on the bit looks like compost! Best I can tell at this point is from the transom all the way to the gas tank well is bad. Can we just take the bad area and leave any good wood ahead of gas tank area...or do most of you cut it all out and start over? Are we going to find real solid wood in the stringers or is going to be plywood...it's so think and tall...my buddy things the later!

How do any of you feel about abover putting the new floor over the old floor and having a few inches of overlap? Seal all edges of the new floor, glass the new to the old with a channel running around the permitter and then using firing strips (or similar) to place on top of the bulk heads so the floor rests on those for support?

Does anyone every screw the floor into the bulkheads to reduce noise? Seems silly that "bondo" like stuff they used to attach the floor to the bulkheads.

[Liam]

I would remove all the foam,it may seem dry but will likely be wet at the bottom against the hull. Looking at you pic i would cut the deck back a little further at the rear to eliminate more of the wet wood that is still around the edges,then fill and seal edges with thickened epoxy or vinylester.(don't use bondo in the marine enviroment).
I would not put any foam back in personally,not good with wood cored stringers.
Keep testing the stringers moving forward until you find good wood,mine were rotten all the way to the cuddy,then sister in at that point.
As far as the sole i would start fresh and not overlay the old deck,way too much uneccessary weight somewhere for moisture to get trapped.
Definitely add limber holes at the back of the stringers.
I am in process of doing the same as you on my 73,i need to update my thread but it is not easy taking pics when your hands are stuck together with resin,lol.

[carboncow]

Laim,

more questions...

1. What did you use to cut your deck? We used a circular saw that cut like butter but can only get an inch or so to the wall...the zip saw is not as fun.

2. Could you expend on the "more weight" and "trap moisture" comment, I guess I'm not seeing/understand that (but I am listening!).

3. How do you suggest the foam comes out? I think I read a guys post on using a chain saw and my buddy is a chain saw master. So do we think the foam adds to the shortness of life of stringers due holding the moisture in the area?

4. Do you suggest trying to salvage the fiberglass from the stringers as much as posible and just insert more wood?

5. What kind of wood are using for the stringers? Based on their height we are expecting to find plywood in there too!

[Liam]

Laim,

more questions...

1. What did you use to cut your deck? We used a circular saw that cut like butter but can only get an inch or so to the wall...the zip saw is not as fun.

I used a circular saw where i could and then a sawzall in the corners

2. Could you expend on the "more weight" and "trap moisture" comment, I guess I'm not seeing/understand that (but I am listening!).

One deck on top of another is 2 times the weight( a considerable amount) and if one is sandwiched on top of the other you will likely get voids and use a ton of resin to bond them together(more weight/cost).The underside of the deck should be allowed air to reach it,allow it to breathe and extend its life,you want to put a layer of glass on the underside of the new deck core also

3. How do you suggest the foam comes out? I think I read a guys post on using a chain saw and my buddy is a chain saw master. So do we think the foam adds to the shortness of life of stringers due holding the moisture in the area?
I used a shovel,flat bar and then a scraper and finally grinding disc,most of it comes out easily,chainsaw is gonna make a lot of mess and may damge the hull if not careful
yes i believe the foam decreases the life of a wood cored stringer
4. Do you suggest trying to salvage the fiberglass from the stringers as much as posible and just insert more wood?

Cut the fibreglass about 1 inch up from where it meets the hull all the way along the stringer and then remove all the old stringer,cut new stringers to size and use the cleaned out channel you left as a guide to insert the new stringer on thickened resin,then glass the whole thing in with 1708.
A new layer of 1708 will seal you new stringers better than the fibreglass job they did at thew factory

5. What kind of wood are using for the stringers? Based on their height we are expecting to find plywood in there too!

I used 3/4 exterior grade fir doubled up,marine ply is better but cost is way higher,IMO properly sealed fir will last nearly as long. I am not sure what the original stringer material is on your year,mine was spruce but it is a 1973,others may chime in here

[dan4836]

I am doing the same project now.

I cut out my deck, removed the fuel tank and foam. Cut the tops of the stringers and bulkheads and was planning on using Seacast or Arjay to fill the void.

What I decided to do is pick up three sheets of 3/4" A/C plywood. Cost all the wood with polyester resin. Install the 3/4" stringers back into the stringer cavity.

What I found - the stringers were made with a piece of lumber (not plywood) the bulkheads are made with plywood and are much more difficult to get the wood out.

I will be glassing over using 1708 and chop strand with at least four layers.

I was able to consult with a boat builder and he said the plywood material I am putting in is just to fill the void. The 1708 and chopped strand will be the new structural stringer.

After this is complete, I will drop my 3/4" plywood floor. I thought about using a composite but by the time I have to re-do the floor it should be many years....

My floor will be laminated with two coats of chopped strand.

I will post photos soon...

[carboncow]

I used 3/4 exterior grade fir doubled up,marine ply is better but cost is way higher,IMO properly sealed fir will last nearly as long. I am not sure what the original stringer material is on your year,mine was spruce but it is a 1973,others may chime in here

Thanks and great info.

To be clear...my question about putting the sole on top of the old sole is based on my photos. As you aw I have only 2-3 inches around that permitter and we were considering putting that on top overly lapping about 1-1.5 inches. This would have a water channel all around the permitter.

Were you talking that I would pick of voids this way...or were thinking I was laying the new sole over an old/wet one?

[carboncow]

I am doing the same project now.

I cut out my deck, removed the fuel tank and foam. Cut the tops of the stringers and bulkheads and was planning on using Seacast or Arjay to fill the void.

What I decided to do is pick up three sheets of 3/4" A/C plywood. Cost all the wood with polyester resin. Install the 3/4" stringers back into the stringer cavity.

What I found - the stringers were made with a piece of lumber (not plywood) the bulkheads are made with plywood and are much more difficult to get the wood out.

So it was not continuous wood but smaller pieces? Are they secured (sistered) in a way to connect one another? I should comment my floor was made of chunks of plywood and not one continues piece!

I will be glassing over using 1708 and chop strand with at least four layers.

I was able to consult with a boat builder and he said the plywood material I am putting in is just to fill the void. The 1708 and chopped strand will be the new structural stringer.

So you are using plywood in the stringer? Sometimes when I read this posts (no offense) it makes me question one we even pull the wood out! I'm guessing the factory glass is not amazing with a wet stringer but if you go mega-layered with glass then it really doesn't matter what is inside!?!?

After this is complete, I will drop my 3/4" plywood floor. I thought about using a composite but by the time I have to re-do the floor it should be many years....

I've read many a post on other sites talking composites...and I think it's fine for those with $$$ and who like the wow factor, but as you stated a good wood floor should last a long time too at a lower cost.

My floor will be laminated with two coats of chopped strand.

What type/weave will you use? We are trying to understand all the designations people are listing.

I will post photos soon...

See my questions up in the body of the text...

[carboncow]

Dan,

Any to be clear...you are doing your stringers in 3/4" plywood? Marine grade or standard? We've been getting mixed info on this but we seem to believe if the plywood is heavily resin'd then it doesn't need to be marine.

Will your stringer needs be greater then the length of plywood (assuming 8ft) and if so doesn't it matter how they "butt" to the next piece?

thanks.

[carboncow]

Guys...I need input on "how much" 1708 to buy.

We may need todo two stringers up to 10+ feet long and the sole as you see. We can do the math I'm sure but how many yards are we talking?

Seems it's in 50" width and I'm seeing 48 yards for about $290.

Thoughts?

[Liam]

Hey sorry i misinterpreted what you where saying with the deck,you will be fine using the perimiter to attatch,i am doing the same.
I have saddle tanks so am raising the tanks 3/4 inch to allow for the overlap.
I am only using one layer of 1708 on the stringers,50 inch will do both my stringers,tabbed in with 6 inch 1708 tape and CSM in the tight corners.
I suspect your stringers are taller than mine though so you may need to use one length of 38 inch per stringer.
For the deck i plan to use one layer of 1.5 oz CSM on the underside then one layer of 1708 with a layer of 3/4 oz CSM on the topside.Thats with 1/2 inch ply.
My stringers are longer than 8 feet, as the stringer is made from 2 pieces of 3/4 ply i just cut one piece 12 inches shorter and do the reverse on the next section of stringer,glue with resin and stainless screws,then one sheet of 1708 over the whole stringer.

[carboncow]

Liam,

Glad to think average minds think alike...

comments in body of the text.

Hey sorry i misinterpreted what you where saying with the deck,you will be fine using the perimiter to attatch,i am doing the same.
I have saddle tanks so am raising the tanks 3/4 inch to allow for the overlap.
I am only using one layer of 1708 on the stringers,50 inch will do both my stringers,tabbed in with 6 inch 1708 tape and CSM in the tight corners.

How come only one layer on the stringer (I see many guys online doing multiple. Is it because you have strength in the old ones at the base and pouring in the fill will give additional stability?

I've seen the glass tape online...why are you using it? Is it easier then cutting something long and thin for tabbing needs?

I suspect your stringers are taller than mine though so you may need to use one length of 38 inch per stringer.

Yes now that I see the newer boats have only two tall stringers and from your post you have 4 shorter ones (I believe) which presents some challenge of the wood height and getting it in there. I like your idea of leaving a few inches of the stringer for a guide.

For the deck i plan to use one layer of 1.5 oz CSM on the underside then one layer of 1708 with a layer of 3/4 oz CSM on the topside.Thats with 1/2 inch ply.
My stringers are longer than 8 feet, as the stringer is made from 2 pieces of 3/4 ply i just cut one piece 12 inches shorter and do the reverse on the next section of stringer,glue with resin and stainless screws,then one sheet of 1708 over the whole stringer.


Are you stating your will glue and screw those two stringer pieces together or are you screwing your deck to your bulkhead/stringers too?

What is CSM..."chopped" or "cut" matting? Obviously you have done some glass work before with the different weight usages. If we are buying a large roll of 1708 are we fine to use that for all deck needs and just change directions? How many layers would you recommend for the decking? (I see many opinions out there!



Again, this is great stuff. Thanks for letting me parse your comments as I learn this. I got a buddy who is off the charts handy with this stuff but green with glass but I like to understand everyone process to feed him the intel so we do our boat right and safe the first time.

[Liam]

CSM stands for "chopped strand mat"
As far as one layer,1708 is actually 2 layers it is one layer of 45 degree woven fabric with a layer of CSM stiched to the back of it. Providing you don't use polyester resin 1708 is extremely strong and waterproof.
The deck will be screwed to the stringers and bulkheads,there will also be a layer of thickened resin on top of the stringers/bulkheads to allow for any undulations. The stringers will be screwed at the overlap permanently,when i glued the two layers of stringer together i put resin between the two and screwed and clamped them until the resin had set then removed the screws.

Glass tape saves cutting as you mentioned and is used for tabbing in.

Your stringers are taller because you have a later boat that has a self bailing deck ,the deck was raised to be above the water line and they increased the cap height to allow for the loss in freeboard.

[bradford]

Excellent posts!

[carboncow]

CSM stands for "chopped strand mat"
As far as one layer,1708 is actually 2 layers it is one layer of 45 degree woven fabric with a layer of CSM stiched to the back of it. Providing you don't use polyester resin 1708 is extremely strong and waterproof.
The deck will be screwed to the stringers and bulkheads,there will also be a layer of thickened resin on top of the stringers/bulkheads to allow for any undulations. The stringers will be screwed at the overlap permanently,when i glued the two layers of stringer together i put resin between the two and screwed and clamped them until the resin had set then removed the screws.

Glass tape saves cutting as you mentioned and is used for tabbing in.

Your stringers are taller because you have a later boat that has a self bailing deck ,the deck was raised to be above the water line and they increased the cap height to allow for the loss in freeboard.

Going to keep bugging you!

1. Why not poly...which one sticks better to the old glass too?
2. I'm trying to get a grasp on how many yards of 50" 1708. How much did you buy/use...or did I miss that somewhere?

We found one vendor selling a roll of 48" yard very reasonably but that seems like a lot if only doing one layer on the stringers and two on the deck. We'll take some measurements this weekend on the boat to come up with our theory of quantity.

3. How much resin would you also recommend based on my photo and if we had todo two tall stringers front to back. My buddy thinks 3 would due but I'm always the pessimist and think 5 is the safe thing.

[Liam]

Going to keep bugging you!

1. Why not poly...which one sticks better to the old glass too?
epoxy would be the best choice and will stick to old work the best,then vinylester,the fumes are pretty rough with vinylester though,then polyester which won't stick to epoxy nor is very waterproof over the long term. I am not saying it would be wrong to use poly, a lot of boat builders do,i believe the original construction on your boat is poly,but if you plan on keeping the boat for a while I would use vinylester,just get a good respirator,if money is not an issue and you are keeping the boat for ever use epoxy,lol

2. I'm trying to get a grasp on how many yards of 50" 1708. How much did you buy/use...or did I miss that somewhere?
I buy mine in smaller orders online from uscomposites,i buy enough for each part of the project,as I recall I bought 5 yards for the stringers

We found one vendor selling a roll of 48" yard very reasonably but that seems like a lot if only doing one layer on the stringers and two on the deck. We'll take some measurements this weekend on the boat to come up with our theory of quantity.

3. How much resin would you also recommend based on my photo and if we had todo two tall stringers front to back. My buddy thinks 3 would due but I'm always the pessimist and think 5 is the safe thing.
Your going to need a lot of resin,i used 3 gallons for the transom,1708 sucks up a lot of resin. You can keep the amount of resin down by building with the "wet on wet" method which makes for a stronger bond and uses less resin. I would guess 3 gallons would be about right for the stringers,make sure you order plenty of cabosil also,one quart of cabosil to one quart of vinylester will get you pretty close to a peanut butter consistency

[carboncow]

I've seen the mention of "peanut butter" before...where did you primarily use it on your build?

Does cabosoil only mix with the vinylester or does it mix with resin too?

[carboncow]

OK, looks likes the cabot mixes with resin fine.

EDITED:

1. We are going to buy from UScomposites. Their resin comes in thin and thick...but there is some warning about the thick not being idea for getting into cloth. Should we buy thick for doing vertical stringers and thing for everything else or will thin work for vertical with some patience and technique? Or should going with a faster dry...or just a few more drops of hardner. What is the best technique for vertical.

2. Can "peanut butter" be used about anywhere to fill a void? I have those small gaps we dug out near the edge of the sole where I need an inch of filler.

3. Liam, did you use tabing for deck work connecting to the sides or overlapping larger pieces...or just work with well cut larger pieces?

[dan4836]

I am using 3/4 A/C plywood with two coats of poly resin to seal it. After I install the plywood stringers into the existing cavity, I will laminate with 1708 and cap the top off with CSM.

I will be doing most of this work tomorrow so I will post some photos.

[carboncow]

I am using 3/4 A/C plywood with two coats of poly resin to seal it. After I install the plywood stringers into the existing cavity, I will laminate with 1708 and cap the top off with CSM.

I will be doing most of this work tomorrow so I will post some photos.


Dan,

We are going to use 3/4 AC too. We found all our bulkheads are mush too...so lots of cutting and reinstalling todo yet.

When you guys lay the 1708 on the deck...will you but the glass sheets to one another or will you over lap them...or some other technique? We are going to be using a textured paint when done so small imperfects will not bug us but we are still trying to figure out all the ways to terminate.

[carboncow]

Ok...today was 10 hours of removing foam (yep 2 guys)...what a pain that was. We used a garden shovel (short and flat) and the trick was to only put it in a few inches and lift...larger chunks break this way. If you go to deep you cannot get it to break well. We then used short crow bars to bust up deeper and scrape the glass clean. We still have to run some wire brushes over to clean everything off were we'll retab.

Sadly the good foam will not come out easily but the wet stuff will seperate from the hull/glass easily. For us 70% of the foam was good and could have stayed but the right think todo was to take it out to see what was under it. Nothing was smelly or rottted...just a little wet in a few corners.

Who can tell us what is the best way to prep the old glass when tabbing over. I've seen grind, dewax and clean. Can someone talk more on the deway/cleaning solutions used?

The only think I can say at this point as I feel I know enough about building skill to really give this build a C-/+ below the deck. Like Liam said it's prob not as much about bad years but bad days. We found many holes in the stringer/bulkheads not sealed and rotted, poorly terminated glass that allowed wood to have direct access to water, poor and redundant bulkhead locations...just sloppy work everywhere. I sure hope they don't build boats like this anymore!

If you look at the photo 4992 where Evan is stilling I've drew a red line below an area that they put extra glass in the back area...not sure why but it seems to be a reinforcement on both sides. The problem it's pulled up...not really delaminated, just poorly done. From what we can tell it may very well be a water channel to the stringers.

Question: Can we just grind this down and glass over and be done? Or should it be cut out as much as posible...anyone seen this before?

[Liam]

You want the thin resin for layup,you could use the thick for making thickened resin for filler but I would just and more cabosil to the thinner resin rather than ordering 2 different resins,yes you can fill those voids in the deck edge with the peanut butter,for larger holes think about adding some 1/4 chopped glass.

As you are seeing the orginal glass work was pretty shoddy,you should be able to do a way better job. I had the same glasswork peeling off in the bilge,but mine was not the original work,someone had redone mine in the past,i was able to just peel it all off. Get as much off as possible,gind and fill all the edges and spread in some slightly thickened resin. Once you have tabbed in the stringers I would lay a fresh layer of 1708 or CSM in the bilge for extra protection.

I have not installed my deck yet I am buried with yard work right now but there are 2 schools of thought on wether to overlap or not. Obviosly it will make a stronger more watertight joint but it will also create a raised area which will need more fairing.
You need to put a layer of CSM after the 1708 on the topside of the deck,this will stop the weave showing though and cut down on fairing.
You want to grind down your perimeter enough to allow for some 1708 to overlap and then the top layer of csm to overlap further without you work ending up raised compared to the original glass.

Also you will find 1708 does not work well on corners,it does not bend well,i found it best to chamfer the top of my stringers and limber holes to allow the 1708 to work better. Make a fillet of thickened resin on any insde corners that you are going to cover with 1708 as you will not get the 1708 into 90 degree corners either. Make the fillets when you are ready to lay the glass,that will make a stronger joint(wet on wet).
While you are in the bilge area,providing you transom is good you may want to cut a mousehole and fill with resin and 1/4 chopped strand around the garboard plug,then redrill for a new garboard plug,leave the outer layer of the transom glass in place and fill from the inside,this will increase the life of you transom.

[carboncow]

While you are in the bilge area,providing you transom is good you may want to cut a mousehole and fill with resin and 1/4 chopped strand around the garboard plug,then redrill for a new garboard plug,leave the outer layer of the transom glass in place and fill from the inside,this will increase the life of you transom.

Man you got the best info! I'm following your solid to the "mouse hold discussion".

A surveyor on site when we picked up the old boat give our transom a "solid" rating...but that is about all we found solid. Should we clean up where the transom meets the hull and re-tab that out too as well as the drain comment from you?

[carboncow]

Where were these boats primarily made, what location?

Can one assume that other Wellcrafts (scarabs for example) have this terrible glasswork below the deck? I got a few buddies with 80s scarabs, one's a beautiful center console...I wonder how scared he'll be when he sees my photos!

[phatdaddy]

most were made in the sarasota plant. gotta remember, these hulls are 20 to 30 years old, plus the materials & techniques were still evolving.
when i cut out & replaced my deck, i bonded a 1/2 wooden tab to the underside of the lip like a shelf around the cavity. i then cut out a piece of 1/2 ply to fit the hole, then glassed over & faired to the original edge. this left the everything flush on the deck.

[bradford]

More great posts! Like the idea about the garboard drain and Phatdaddy's idea about filling the edge of the deck.

I think a lot of the quality issues come down to Wellcrafts being a mass production boat. Having an '85 and breifly an '86 there were differences in quality of hardware. Some stainless parts on my '85 were the chrome zamak pot metal on the '86. The company I'm sure was shopping prices on things to keep costs down and I'm sure this carried over to glass work as well.

I like chevy/GMC trucks. Not too many 85 models that don't need some work,have had shoddy repairs from several previous owners, or would benefit from newer technology out there. Once in a great while you run across a low mileage, garage kept, and owned by an old man cream puff.

[phatdaddy]

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance.pdf

look through this book its short and has a lot of great ideas and techniques. you can pick up a hard copy for easy reference. it tends to promote west brand materials, but the ideas are universall

[bradford]

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance.pdf

look through this book its short and has a lot of great ideas and techniques. you can pick up a hard copy for easy reference. it tends to promote west brand materials, but the ideas are universall


I copied to the Links section.

I like the fact that it's somewhat short and sweet. I have a few books on fiberglass repair and some can get a little wordy.

A great book that keeps it simple is Runabout Renovation by Jim Anderson. Got it at the library first before I bought it off Ebay for less than 10 bucks with shipping.

[carboncow]

most were made in the sarasota plant. gotta remember, these hulls are 20 to 30 years old, plus the materials & techniques were still evolving.
when i cut out & replaced my deck, i bonded a 1/2 wooden tab to the underside of the lip like a shelf around the cavity. i then cut out a piece of 1/2 ply to fit the hole, then glassed over & faired to the original edge. this left the everything flush on the deck.

Thanks for the info. I'm not questing the technique (ok may be the foam!) but when you are a DIY (like me) you can spot shoddy work, and I'm seeing some obvious corner cutting production and/or inexperience. I'd like to think by 1988 Wellcraft knew how to make a boat and especially this one!

One question on your deck technique. I think you are suggesting what we are going todo. We are discussing putting a lip around the civility of the sole too so the new sole sits in like a hatch. It appears th eold wood is 1/2 and we are going to go 5/8 or 3/4 and thus have it raised...and basically have a water channel around the permitter as we have cut back around the entire deck to 1.5" from the wall. Is this what you are explaining to other then a flush deck?

We have a leaning post, centerconsole and t-top and want more thickness in our wood. Do you think we are overkilling on thickness or does it sound like increasing makes sense with our deck variables?

[carboncow]

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance.pdf

look through this book its short and has a lot of great ideas and techniques. you can pick up a hard copy for easy reference. it tends to promote west brand materials, but the ideas are universall

Oh this is great!!

[phatdaddy]

i kept mine flush with the existing deck.

one trick i did learn, after you get your lip around the cavity, make a template out of thin strips of 2x4 cut edgewise (maybe 1/8 " thick) and fastened together with a hot glue gun. you can get a very exact fit and it transfers to your ply very easily. this will cut down on the voids between old deck & new

[dan4836]

1708 does not bend very good so I butted the 1708 and used CSM to bend around corners.

Today's accomplishments:

Spent all day glassing in stringers, took more time than I thought but I am happy with the results.

Inserted 3/4" A/C plywood (resin coated) into existing stringers and bulk heads (tops cut off, wood removed and cleaned)

Needed to add some putty filler on top as I left the plywood a little short. This allowed me to cap off the tops and make a nice finish.

Added 6" tab of 1708 to the bottoms of all stringers and bulk heads. Added 10" 1708 over top of the 6". Capped the tops of the stringers with CSM with to layers of 10"

This is all I got to today. I still need to add two layers of 10" CSM over top of the 1708 on the bottom.

I can't believe how strong my stringers are now.

I am almost ready for the floor which will be 3/4" A/C or 3/4" birch from Lowes. About the same price. Not sure if birch is much heaver or not.

I will be going over the 3/4" floor with two layers of CSM on both sides.

This should give the boat a very solid feeling.

I am decided not to add any foam. Leaving everything able to drain and breath.

[Liam]

We have a leaning post, centerconsole and t-top and want more thickness in our wood. Do you think we are overkilling on thickness or does it sound like increasing makes sense with our deck variables?

You can also add 3/4 ply to the underside of the deck in any area you will be putting a seat,console etc,anywhere you need to screw into.

[Liam]

I am almost ready for the floor which will be 3/4" A/C or 3/4" birch from Lowes. About the same price. Not sure if birch is much heaver or not.

.

Although the birch has very few voids I have read it does not take resin well,the resin does not soak into the wood and create a good bond. I have not tested this myself though.

[Liam]

when i cut out & replaced my deck, i bonded a 1/2 wooden tab to the underside of the lip like a shelf around the cavity. i then cut out a piece of 1/2 ply to fit the hole, then glassed over & faired to the original edge. this left the everything flush on the deck.

I considered this teqnique,but it seems the underside of the remaining perimeter is very uneven. How did you seal your tabs,did you just soak them in resin and then screw them from the top with thickened resin? thanks

[phatdaddy]

had to do some grinding on bottom side. the tabs were soaked with epoxy & then bonded to the lip with slightly thickened epoxy(to cut down on the dripping). held in place with c clamps until cured. no mechanical fasteners. i used epoxy only, not polyester. i think it has a stronger bond & is easier to work with. more consistent pot life & work time. the down side is you are then forced to paint deck, can't gel coat.

[bradford]

I wouldn't put in any foam. You have the right idea about letting everything drain well and get air to it to dry out. I think it's a good idea if you park her indoors to open the hatches to let air circulate, if not at least the ones inside the cuddy if you have a cuddy model. Interestingly mine didn't have any foam except for around the rotted out fuel tank.

When reinstalling the deck you should add additional hatches where available. My cuddy had a huge void forward of the fish box that I opened up and installed my batteries and an additional bilge pump. Also you should add hinges to your fuel tank hatch to make it easier to inspect or remove if necessary.

Great hearing everyone's progress!

[phatdaddy]

i also added a compartment forward of the fish box, not sure if it's doable on a center console

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo214/gls216/DSCF0397.jpg (http://s377.photobucket.com/user/gls216/media/DSCF0397.jpg.html)

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo214/gls216/DSCF0395.jpg (http://s377.photobucket.com/user/gls216/media/DSCF0395.jpg.html)

also agree with bradford on the air circulation, this is what i do when parking mine

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo214/gls216/DSCF0506.jpg (http://s377.photobucket.com/user/gls216/media/DSCF0506.jpg.html)

[cterrebonne]

you can do it on a Center console. I am going to do it on mine. There is a lot of storage down there. I am going to put in a false bottom. That way I have room to mount the trolling motors.

[tartuffe]

Man oh man, been where you are:
http://wellcraftv20.com/community/showthread.php?t=17379&highlight=81+wellcraft+center+console

All in all good advice you are getting. I would plan to tab in with more than 1 layer of tape. You will find that a layer of 1708 cured out is flexible, around 3 layers you get rid of most of the flex. Your peanut butter should have schopped strand in it as well. Straight resin and cabosil mixed is pretty brittle even though epoxy resin has more flex than polyester.

Make sure before you get started you have lots of acetone, rags, a box of those medical gloves (nitrile/latex) lots of measuring cups and stir sticks

You asked about original glass prep; I used a 4" grinder with 60 grit disks.Scuffed an area about 1' wide the entire length of the stringer, followed by vacuum then wipe down with alcohol. Alcohol evaporates much quicker than acetone. Acetone leaves behind a bit more residue so I wouldn't recommend it for prep work.

When putting in your fillets on your stringers, it works well to put your PB mix in a 1 gal. ziplock bag with the corner cut out to use like a cake decorating bag. Lay the bead and use the end of a spoon give you a nice uniform radius.

Do at least your first layer of tabbing when you do your fillets.

Do not try to do any fiberglass wet-out without a resin roller. I bought several but my favorite by far was my 2.5" length and 3/8 diameter roller, used it almost exclusively.

Also as far as 1708, I liked the 45/45 thread. As far as laying out the glass and wetting out, the direction of the stiching is everything. Stiching running parallel to the bend work much better than perpendicular.

[cterrebonne]

Man oh man, been where you are:
http://wellcraftv20.com/community/showthread.php?t=17379&highlight=81+wellcraft+center+console

All in all good advice you are getting. I would plan to tab in with more than 1 layer of tape. You will find that a layer of 1708 cured out is flexible, around 3 layers you get rid of most of the flex. Your peanut butter should have schopped strand in it as well. Straight resin and cabosil mixed is pretty brittle even though epoxy resin has more flex than polyester.

Make sure before you get started you have lots of acetone, rags, a box of those medical gloves (nitrile/latex) lots of measuring cups and stir sticks

You asked about original glass prep; I used a 4" grinder with 60 grit disks.Scuffed an area about 1' wide the entire length of the stringer, followed by vacuum then wipe down with alcohol. Alcohol evaporates much quicker than acetone. Acetone leaves behind a bit more residue so I wouldn't recommend it for prep work.

When putting in your fillets on your stringers, it works well to put your PB mix in a 1 gal. ziplock bag with the corner cut out to use like a cake decorating bag. Lay the bead and use the end of a spoon give you a nice uniform radius.

Do at least your first layer of tabbing when you do your fillets.

Do not try to do any fiberglass wet-out without a resin roller. I bought several but my favorite by far was my 2.5" length and 3/8 diameter roller, used it almost exclusively.

Also as far as 1708, I liked the 45/45 thread. As far as laying out the glass and wetting out, the direction of the stiching is everything. Stiching running parallel to the bend work much better than perpendicular.

Tartuffe, Do you know about how many hours it took you to put in the stringers and bulkheads?

[tartuffe]

I would say realistically around 60 hours cutting and shaping wood, bevels for the scab pieces, routing the tops of the stringers, and glassing in but thats not counting the 100 hours I stared at it. Measuring was the worst part and figuring out how everything was going to go together.



It was fun though once I started to view it as a hobby rather than a job.

[cterrebonne]

I would say realistically around 60 hours cutting and shaping wood, bevels for the scab pieces, routing the tops of the stringers, and glassing in but thats not counting the 100 hours I stared at it. Measuring was the worst part and figuring out how everything was going to go together.



It was fun though once I started to view it as a hobby rather than a job.

thanks for the estimate. I figured there would be a lot of time involved. I am trying to gauge whether or not I will have enough time to have my boat floatable before june. That darn transom of mine ended up taking so much more time than what I anticipated and I am still not done with it. I might have to start working on my rig in the evenings also.

Thanks again.

[tartuffe]

One thing I forgot to add in my post and that is in regard to the structural integrity of what you are doing.

The fiberglass hull without stringers or cross members/bulkheads is very flexible. When you go over a wake or wave and smack one square on the backside and your teeth rattle your boat absorbed alot of force. The areas furthest from the internal structure flex the most while those at the substructure do not flex at all. While not always teeth rattling, this force and flex happens constantly.

Your goal is to gradually transition that flex to the inflexible point over as large a distance as possible. Multiple layers of tabbing starting 6" from the stringer, then 4", then 2", to your filet disperse the flex and prevent what are referred to as hard spots. Its very important.

[carboncow]

Way over due for some updates and photos...but I have questions...so I'm back.

We have the new stringers in and couldn't be happier. We left the old bulkheads and although some are a bit damp the wood will not touch the new stringers...we are yet to tab them to one another.

Limber holes are drilled thru the stringers and we are using 3M 4200 to coat them. We've applied one coat and will apply a 2nd coat and bed in the gray PVC piping to hopefully get a tight fit. We had no 5200 handy and couldn't wait...so hopefully the 4200 is sufficient or our hard work may be in vein!

Question: What type of paint can be used to cover the bilge and paint a few areas of the hull interior? I'm assuming we can just wipe with acetone and some type of epoxy paint...but we are clueless so any specifics would be helpful. Just trying to pretty it up on a budget.

Question: I've also included a shot of the transom which (luckily) was the only thing on the boat that wasn't soft. As you look at the attached photo you'll see the gel coat is cracking and seperated from some parts of the inside of the transom. We are going to custom bend an aluminium plate to pretty up this area. Any suggestions if we should seal/fill that crack up gel coat here?

[tartuffe]

Dont prep painted areas with acetone, it leaves a residue. Bilge areas need a paint meant for standing water, if not it will blister and peel after a week of water in your bilge. I used interlux performance vc in my bilge, it works well. Rustoleum makes a topside paint, never used it but heard good things.

Are you going to put foam back in your boat? I would if I were you.

Regarding covering up cracked gel coat, need pics.

[carboncow]

Are you going to put foam back in your boat? I would if I were you.

Regarding covering up cracked gel coat, need pics.

Thanks for your comments...what is your priority for the foam as I've seen several posts say they are not doing it?

If you look at the last photo and click on it in detail you'll see the gelcoat cracks on the dirty (inside) of the transom around the engine area. Suggestions?

[tartuffe]

My eyes are not so great that I can get an idea of why the gelcoat is coming off in chunks if I am seeing that correctly.

Regarding the foam, people will say it leads to rot, absorbs water.......If not built properly it, sure it could lead to rot. Question is do you want the boat to last 30 more years full of flotation or 100 years and you are one piece of debris in the water away from having your family in the water awaiting rescue?

If you put drains in your rod holders and consider how water gets under the deck, you can figure out how minimize water intrusion. My boat was 30 years old when I ripped it apart and the only place i found water saturated foam was under the fuel tank. It got there from the bulkheads rotting out.

[carboncow]

We have stripped the decals off the boat and I don't think we have to sand it down due to the shine still in the hull. I'm hoping simply compounding, polishing and waxing will do. I've got a buddy who does vehicle wraps and will work with him on new graphics to cover up the old ones and the shine left by the stripes.

What do you use the prep the hull especially with the glues from the old decals. we used a special wheel to rip the decals off the hull but the glue and such remains.

I know it should be washed with a acid solution (delimer) but can I acetone the hull...it seems to want to talk that adhesive off that adhesive mover cannot budge. Or will acetone damage the gelcoat in some way?

[Destroyer]

I REALLY don't know if this will work, but try some MaryKate On and Off hull cleaner. The stuff contains acid and is made to remove oil scum, tar, and most anything else from fiberglass hulls. Harmless to the hull, and it just might remove that glue residue you're talking about. Use it in a WELL VENTILATED area... like outside,..... and use gloves and goggles while using it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Mary+Kay+Off+and+on&oq=Mary+Kay+Off+and+on&aqs=chrome..69i57.7040j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=marykate+on+and+off+hull+cleaner

[carboncow]

Thanks Destroyer...I'm going to guess this is the same thing as the industrial d-limer I user her at work that is also a mild acid. It's amazing for cleaning the hull just like any over priced boat cleaner I've used (with acid) but it doesn't do much to those decal adhesives!

[Destroyer]

Well, you have three choices, you can use Oxalic acid or Muriatic acid (Muriatic acid is another name for hydrochloric acid) They are not delimers, although they might work for that use. Muriatic acid is used to etch concrete after all, so I'm sure it attacks lime. Or you can use Marykate. The three main ingredients in it are Muriatic acid, Oxalic acid and Phosphoric acid. Again, I cannot promise you that they will remove the adhesive residue, but I can speak from experience and tell you that it it has never failed to remove everything from my boats hull. rust stains, oil stains, scum, marine growth, creosote rub marks, you name it, it's removed it and it does it in a hurry. And of course you can also try Goo Gone (available in just about any home center store). or (no, I'm not making this up) Peanut butter. My wife uses it all the time to remove the sticky goo left on an item after she removes a sticker or label from something she's bought.... and damn if it doesn't work.

[carboncow]

How do you feel about acetone on the gelcoat since it's doing the best? Any first hand knowledge or experience?

Tried goo gone, west marine adhesive remover as well as the industrial citrus cleaner we use for adhesives at work. Will consider the difference acid but just went out and tested the peanut butter...I think that's best left to price labels on the bottom of dishes!!

[Striper80]

When I painted my outboard cowling I used 3m wood grain adhesive remover. It came in an aresol. Acetone will evaporate too fast. There's also a 3m general adhesive remover that should work. I hope that what's left is the glue and not staining from the eraser wheel. Sometimes they can heat up and burn the Gelcoat.

[carboncow]

Thanks for the input...

The acetone works great...but I just don't know what damage it can do. By evap'ing to quick do you mean it's gone before it can do the work?

I'll have a look for the other products...

If you burn gel coat it's pretty obvious even to an untrained eye. This is clearly left over decal and glue.

[Striper80]

Thanks for the input...

The acetone works great...but I just don't know what damage it can do. By evap'ing to quick do you mean it's gone before it can do the work?

I'll have a look for the other products...

If you burn gel coat it's pretty obvious even to an untrained eye. This is clearly left over decal and glue.

Exactly. I work as an auto painter and what we normally use is enamel reducer. I was talking to a guy I work with and he recommended naptha. It's available at Home Depot and he said it's similar.

[carboncow]

OK, it was a long Sunday but the floor is in and we peanut buttered all the gaps. As you can see from the photos we created a "lip" for the new floor to sit on top of as it touches the permitter of the old floor. We took 2x4 and resined them and glued/wood deck screwed them into the glass and then the new floor on top of them. We had a couple high and low spots on the stringers & bulkheads and knocked down and built up and with everything screwed in the floor is unbelievably strong...if anyone has a baby elephant we could test it.

We used cabasol (sp?) and 1/4" chopped strand with our epoxy resin to fill the gaps and we'll grind things down on Tuesday (two days). Then it's time to put down one layer of glass and epoxy resin on the deck...and the floor is done!

Next steps include restoring the hull and prepping the interior for a Line-X type product.

[mannydvk11]

nice built so far please send me a email with you number and ill be happy to answer all your questions

[carboncow]

Thanks. We are 100% done on stringers, floor, fill and sand. We will be "rolling" textured durabak this week on the floor and smooth durabak on center console and gunnel. Once dry it will be remounting t-top and hardware.

[cterrebonne]

Thanks. We are 100% done on stringers, floor, fill and sand. We will be "rolling" textured durabak this week on the floor and smooth durabak on center console and gunnel. Once dry it will be remounting t-top and hardware.

got some stringer pics?

[carboncow]

If there are none in my multiple posts (and I think there are) look at my signature link of all the images.

[ahmincha]

Nice rebuild carboncow I am in the middle of my own rebuild Keep up the good work. I am also in Ohio

[carboncow]

Nice rebuild carboncow I am in the middle of my own rebuild Keep up the good work. I am also in Ohio

Thanks for the comments...we just got the 2nd coat of durabak on the topside tonight...we are pretty much Durabak jr experts now if anyone has any questions on that product and how to apply it correct...I could write a whole blog but don't have the desire at this point. But we do have some good info, suggestions, short cuts...etc. PM or post here if you like.

We do recommend it...looks great. We went a bit over the top by doing the texture coat on the inside of the walls. I wouldn't suggest that for most but the damn company ran out of smooth white and said it would be 6-8 weeks before they restock it (comes from South Africa) and they are the only source for this product. Found that out half way thru the paint when we needed to reorder.

Photos attached show the 2nd coat applied. We need to apply a 3rd coat to a few areas that were repairs with dark fills...we are mixing our smooth and textured we have left to get a more averaged application.

At this point we have todo the rub rail, wood (all hatches and such are going to be done), wiring, center console and t-top go back in, bottom coat and new graphics along with canvas work!

EDIT: And as always see my signature for links to the entire photo gallery!