A post from another site

[willy]

Some discussion on the Barn about Clooney and other wack jobs pumping millions into the Obamination's pocket.
Thought I would share my post there with you fellows

Clooney is a symptom of a disease, that's all.

He is like many of the ubber wealthy from many fields in this country, they support socialism for the masses. You know the people who cannot think for themselves and need to be taken care of from cradle to grave, the non "in" crowd.
The ones who do not handle being free men and women very well, they go to church, they build families, communities, and countries. They build businesses or work hard all their lives to raise a family. They fight our wars and defend the Constitution of this great nation.
You know, the types the Obamination calls "clingers"
But, do not force them to live in or like the socialist masses.
They are above them. They see things much clearer and are much more enlightened. Like the Obamination.
Socialism and communism all through history was filled with the same thing.
A hierarchy that ruled the masses for their own benefit of course, that lived lives of Kings while the people suffered.

The American Experiment. The antidote to this disease. Free men and women able to live their lives as they see fit, worship as they see fit. Achieve greatness, or not. But the opportunity to live your life as you see fit.
Guaranteed outcomes, nope. Guaranteed opportunity to achieve. Yep.
Liberty.
__________________
Lt. Willy

[reelapeelin]

Still suckin' down all the grape Kool-Aide from the right you can find huh??...I guess when ya get so full, ya just gotta SPEW some of it back out...now those angels on the right would NEVER do anything wrong...as a matter of fact, if every egg-suckin liberal would keel over tonight, all the world's problems would be solved by lunchtime tomorrow...what a wonderful world it would be...:you::you::you:

I ain't drinkin it from EITHER side...and I'm gonna prove that to ya in Nov...

[willy]

I actually like your idea, can we get them to all keel over at the same time?

I do not believe it will take care of all problems, just the biggest ones our nation faces today. And if you can include some of the RINO Republicans who are progressives also like Snow in Maine and a few others like her that would be just jim dandy.

While your at it make sure you snatch up Sharpton Rev Wright and Jackson with them so we can help some black folks get out of the multi generational slavery they are caught up in thanks to those same liberals.

And then if you would be so kind, close the door behind you so they cannot get back in.

[reelapeelin]

Well...didn't wanna break yer bubble ol buddy...but I hear the reason they raised all the $$ at Clooney's place was to make a BIG CONTRIBUTION TO the Tea Baggers...that's RIGHT!!...the Liberals are overjoyed w/The Tea Party for BUSTING UP the normally cohesive GOP...they say they could not have done a better job themselves...yer line re the RINO Republicans is a fine example of this...all those long standing Republican voters are now rethinking their party and what its become...and looking for somewhere else to put their vote...

Yeah, the LEFT down right thankful for the GIFT from the TBs...

Of course it doesn't matter to me...all the partisan theater flowin' from both sides is so much BS...it's like watching another episode of "As the Stomach Turns"...because it veils the REAL problem behind the curtain...and allows them to continue to get away w/it...

[willy]

Talk about kool aid, the Tea Party is the one thing that might actually save the republican party, and the way they have evolved into a loose knit but connected group focusing on organizing and working with campaigns was very smart.
All the morons on the left and the repeaters in the media were declaring the TP dead and ignoring their work.
Then came Indiana last week and a twenty year multi million dollar sitting senator named Lugar ( rino ) and all you heard around the demo/socialist party round tables was a " Oh Sh!t "
And Lugar was one of three that lost it to the TP backed candidates but the others were not such big named un-beatable guys and are not discussed.
Here in NJ it is the Tea Party connected organizations that got the Govenor to veto the law the demo/socialist party passed that would have set up the taxing and structure for the Obaminations health care fiasco.
Was not going to do that before. It sat on his desk waiting to be passed by his in action which was his plan.
Sorry Tea Party connected organizations forced his hand.
Down in your home state buddy the Tea Party, which by the way is nothing but your friends and neighbors fed up with the crap and spending from the federal and state governments is very active.
Remember one thing, the democratic party is not the party of John Kennedy anymore, not that that was such a great thing, but it is being run by and consists of a majority by a big margin of die hard in your face socialists.
They do not even try to hide that anymore.
They do to try to distract by calling others names though. That is how they try to advance their agenda.
One of those lies perpetuated by these sh!t for brains is that the Tea Party is a right wing organization.
Yea, right.
The other is that the Occupy mmovement is a grass roots 99 % group.
Yea, right.
Anyhow right now all those independents, old line democrats, and republicans along with conservatives are holding the governments feet to the fire and demanding accountability. Those people are Tea Party People and thank God for them.

[spareparts]

Willy, don't mind Ozzy, he's been breathing bottom paint again, we got to get him to kick that stuff :you:

[phatdaddy]

heard an interesting observation the other day,

we are doomed because the number of people who work for a living are now outnumbered by the number of people who vote for a living.

[reelapeelin]

Talk about kool aid, the Tea Party is the one thing that might actually save the republican party, and the way they have evolved into a loose knit but connected group focusing on organizing and working with campaigns was very smart.
All the morons on the left and the repeaters in the media were declaring the TP dead and ignoring their work.
Then came Indiana last week and a twenty year multi million dollar sitting senator named Lugar ( rino ) and all you heard around the demo/socialist party round tables was a " Oh Sh!t "
And Lugar was one of three that lost it to the TP backed candidates but the others were not such big named un-beatable guys and are not discussed.
Here in NJ it is the Tea Party connected organizations that got the Govenor to veto the law the demo/socialist party passed that would have set up the taxing and structure for the Obaminations health care fiasco.
Was not going to do that before. It sat on his desk waiting to be passed by his in action which was his plan.
Sorry Tea Party connected organizations forced his hand.
Down in your home state buddy the Tea Party, which by the way is nothing but your friends and neighbors fed up with the crap and spending from the federal and state governments is very active.
Remember one thing, the democratic party is not the party of John Kennedy anymore, not that that was such a great thing, but it is being run by and consists of a majority by a big margin of die hard in your face socialists.
They do not even try to hide that anymore.
They do to try to distract by calling others names though. That is how they try to advance their agenda.
One of those lies perpetuated by these sh!t for brains is that the Tea Party is a right wing organization.
Yea, right.
The other is that the Occupy mmovement is a grass roots 99 % group.
Yea, right.
Anyhow right now all those independents, old line democrats, and republicans along with conservatives are holding the governments feet to the fire and demanding accountability. Those people are Tea Party People and thank God for them.


The stated end is to defeat Obama in November...and believe it or not, I'm going to help in that regard...but the strategy to do so seems to be divid and conquer...a moderate republican (who would have been a vote) is suddenly vilified as though he was a screaming Liberal...by his own party...divide and conquer...run off a large section of your voting population and defeat the great socialist...strategically speaking, I'm just sayin'...:head:

[willy]

That is the main street medias portrayal of it. You noticed who was all upset by his defeat right?
John Kerry, Menendez and Lousenberg from NJ, among other socialists in the senate.
In his home state they were fed up with him signing off on bills to raise taxes, bills to increase spending, compromising on core values to many of the American People who have had enough of these rino's.
In the 2010 sweep by the GOP 63 Congressman were put into the house by Tea Party groups from all the states, 5 Tea Party Senators.
On Nov 2012 if we all do our part they are going to take the senate back and the presidency.
There will be no more of the rino crap from the big spending republicans or the even bigger spending democrats. It is not going to be tolerated. Because the people who have been paying the freight for all the freeloaders for the past four decades have had enough.
Those people are called the Tea Party by every honest citizen in this nation.
By the demo/socialists they are called right wingers. Racist's, fear mongers etc.
Anything they can get the lame street repeaters to print and broadcast.
Well I have been at two of these so called right wingers events local in my state.
A nicer more friendly group of Americans does not exist.
You saw a whole bunch of them last year at the second biggest event held on the National Mall in Washington. When Glen Beck put on his event there.
Non political, non racist, fact and faith and integrity and honor.
Americans on display.
They left the mall cleaner than they found it.
Go and watch an Obamination George Soros Big Labor put up and funded event called the occupy movement.
If you get out of there without suffering some trauma you are lucky. They are the anarchists among us and they are the demo/socialist base.
They seek the destruction of the United States of America and a "fundamental transformation of our country to a socialist central planned one world government"
George Soros is the main funder of almost every group there, The Obamination is their leader and his minions are directing it. His minions would include some of his campaign people, and a lot of the Trumka AFLCIO thugs along with the other bastion of civility the SEIU.
Anarchist's, socialist's, communist's all blatantly telling America what they are and what they demand.
The base of the demo/socialist party.

[reelapeelin]

That is the main street medias portrayal of it. You noticed who was all upset by his defeat right?
John Kerry, Menendez and Lousenberg from NJ, among other socialists in the senate.
In his home state they were fed up with him signing off on bills to raise taxes, bills to increase spending, compromising on core values to many of the American People who have had enough of these rino's.
In the 2010 sweep by the GOP 63 Congressman were put into the house by Tea Party groups from all the states, 5 Tea Party Senators.
On Nov 2012 if we all do our part they are going to take the senate back and the presidency.
There will be no more of the rino crap from the big spending republicans or the even bigger spending democrats. It is not going to be tolerated. Because the people who have been paying the freight for all the freeloaders for the past four decades have had enough.
Those people are called the Tea Party by every honest citizen in this nation.
By the demo/socialists they are called right wingers. Racist's, fear mongers etc.
Anything they can get the lame street repeaters to print and broadcast.
Well I have been at two of these so called right wingers events local in my state.
A nicer more friendly group of Americans does not exist.
You saw a whole bunch of them last year at the second biggest event held on the National Mall in Washington. When Glen Beck put on his event there.
Non political, non racist, fact and faith and integrity and honor.
Americans on display.
They left the mall cleaner than they found it.
Go and watch an Obamination George Soros Big Labor put up and funded event called the occupy movement.
If you get out of there without suffering some trauma you are lucky. They are the anarchists among us and they are the demo/socialist base.
They seek the destruction of the United States of America and a "fundamental transformation of our country to a socialist central planned one world government"
George Soros is the main funder of almost every group there, The Obamination is their leader and his minions are directing it. His minions would include some of his campaign people, and a lot of the Trumka AFLCIO thugs along with the other bastion of civility the SEIU.
Anarchist's, socialist's, communist's all blatantly telling America what they are and what they demand.
The base of the demo/socialist party.

Well takin' all that into account...admittedly there are some details in there I hadn't considered...:head:...I'm sure the minions on the right have got it all sewn up for a Nov shoe in...a cakewalk...

[willy]

Nothing is a cake walk my friend. When you have the power of the purse as in the POTUS, you have an agenda based media whose goal is to deceive and distract so that POTUS gets re-elected it is a tough nut to crack.
Especially when you have a 50% dependent society as planned.
But I believe we are still in a time frame where the American People will stand up and do the right thing for our nation.
And if I happen to see a conservative that allows him or herself to be a minion I will take a picture for ya, that would be a collectors item.

[Destroyer]

One other thing to consider. The Tea Party (not tea baggers, which is a really nasty slur) is comprised of normal, everyday people that have simply had enough of the BS that, for a long while, has been forced on the American public. That BS is being done by a bunch of people that have, as an objective, nothing less than the complete overthrow of America and the subjugation of her citizens. As Willy already said, one of the foremost people at the head of the "movement" is Geroge Soros. This is a man who brags about (as one of his major accomplishments) the destruction of England's economy a few years back.

But I digress. As I said already, the Tea Party is composed of normal everyday people. In my office that is an engineer, a lawyer, a secratary, a driver and a switchboard operator. They all stopped drinking the media cool aid, started looking at their paycheck and at what was happening to their Country. And they didn't like it. All of them, each on their own without any collusion, found different tea party groups and they started attending meetings. They learned that, instead of their being the minority that the left wing controlled media would have them believe, they were actually the majority in this Country. They learned that only 22% of the Country identifies themselves as liberal. The rest identify themselves as either independants or conservatives. They learned that they weren't a bunch of wackos & racists. But, more than that, they learned that they don't have to put up with the bs that was being shoved down their throats by a bunch of left wing, elite socialists (and their puppet media) that are trying to control them for their own personal gains. We learned that our votes DO count. Presently, we're locked in a battle. Our fight, our objective, is nothing less than trying to reclaim our Country for it's citizens. We're going to toss out the RINO's. We're going to toss out the imposter that presently sits in the most powerful chair in America. We're going to take back our Country and try to undo the damage that has been done to it.

Come join us. Find a group near you and attend a meeting. Learn what's been going on behind your back. Learn the truth. I guarentee that you'll be amazed when you find out that the people you thought were kooks are actually your neighbors and some of the nicest people in the world. And you'll probably be pissed off beyond belief once you learn what's been happening to you, and your freedoms, in the name of "progress". Learn, research, seek out the truth, then make your own decision based on what you have learned, not on what you've been told.

[willy]

And there it is!

[reelapeelin]

Well here's what I'm gonna do...I'm gonna practice what I preach...I voted for Obama last election because I was so entirely disgusted with Geo W Bush, I wanted to vote as far in the other direction from him as I possibly could...and then the GOP trotted out Sarah Palin who instantly came across as an in over her head phony w/no place what so ever on the stage for the white house...As some of you have heard me say before, the biggest problem in this country is the career politician..even a two term president gains too much poer...I've said before, vote out the incumbent every election day...and that's what I'm gonna do...no individual will get my vote but ONCE...no party will get my vote for a particular office but once...if everybody would have the will to do this, we could get this country back for the people...so that's what I'm gonna do...there's no party line in it...there's no Kool Aide in that flavor...and that's what scares THEM the most...

And one other thing...when I hear the right spout out about the Liberal Media, I just wanna break down and just BOO HOO...yes they are...and it's because the left had the foresight to invest in COMMUNICATIONS long ago and apparently nobody on the right had that foresight until FOX came along...it wasn't because the right was somehow denied access to ownership...it's because they didn't make the choice to go there...so quit whining about it, cuz it was by choice of leadership...I also believe in individual responsibility, and it ain't somebody else's fault the right didn't get on the media wagon long ago...

And there it REELY is...

[Destroyer]

Well here's what I'm gonna do...I'm gonna practice what I preach...I voted for Obama last election because I was so entirely disgusted with Geo W Bush, I wanted to vote as far in the other direction from him as I possibly could...and then the GOP trotted out Sarah Palin who instantly came across as an in over her head phony w/no place what so ever on the stage for the white house...As some of you have heard me say before, the biggest problem in this country is the career politician..even a two term president gains too much poer...I've said before, vote out the incumbent every election day...and that's what I'm gonna do...no individual will get my vote but ONCE...no party will get my vote for a particular office but once...if everybody would have the will to do this, we could get this country back for the people...so that's what I'm gonna do...there's no party line in it...there's no Kool Aide in that flavor...and that's what scares THEM the most...

And one other thing...when I hear the right spout out about the Liberal Media, I just wanna break down and just BOO HOO...yes they are...and it's because the left had the foresight to invest in COMMUNICATIONS long ago and apparently nobody on the right had that foresight until FOX came along...it wasn't because the right was somehow denied access to ownership...it's because they didn't make the choice to go there...so quit whining about it, cuz it was by choice of leadership...I also believe in individual responsibility, and it ain't somebody else's fault the right didn't get on the media wagon long ago...

And there it REELY is...


Ok...lol... I've just GOTTA respond quickly to the last post....

First things first...IMHO George W was actually a fairly good president. Not the best ever, but good. Soon after he took over 9/11 happened. (An attack that was planned way before he became president) (An attack that if the previous president had done his job would never have happened) He squared his shoulders, said the hell to what other people were saying about him and KEPT OUR COUNTRY SAFE for the entire length of his presidency...Not a single attack was committed against us after 9/11. People called him stupid, even though he has 2 degrees from college. He was villified in the press and on tv, made out to be the biggest boob ever, and yet he stood his ground, never waivered and never looked back. He knew his job was to protect the US and he did it, and I'd tip my hat to him any day of the week.

Sarah Palin scared the sh!t outta the left, so the left attacked her mercelessly, They attacked her children, her husband, they called her a s!ut, called her daughter a wh0re, made up outright lies about her. Really it's one of the most disgusting character assasinations I've ever witnessed. And it worked.. People thought she was a brainless idiot, because that's what they were TOLD to think about her by the media....over and over. (It's a well know fact that if you repeat a lie often enough people will start to believe it).. and that's exactly what they did to both George W and Sarah Palin. She's actually a very intelligent, moral woman with good family values. I think she would have made a great president....certainly better than John McCain. But that's just my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs.

As for the media comment, you're absolutely right. 100% hit the bullseye right in the middle correct. If the establishment rino Republicans had done their job years ago we'd never have had half this mess we're in right now. (And by the way, it's not just limited to the media. Our kids are being brainwashed EVERY DAY in school by left wing teachers and professors, starting from kindergarten and right up through college). We (the right wing conservatives) fell down on the job long ago as far as the media is concerned. Hopefully we have enough time left to correct our mistakes. It's gonna be close...the damage to our freedoms, to our Country is real, and it's almost fatal. But by God we're gonna try. We are legion and we will not walk silently into the night.

[willy]

Took those thoughts right off the tip of my tongue.

Amen

[RidgeRunner]

Only problem I can see with voting out the incumbent is the shift of power and control of the House and Senate. We saw what Pelosi and Reed did whilst they had the mic. "Just pass it so we can read it later" BS..
Bills introduced at 2:00 in the a.m. that were passed thru within 24 hours etc. Then the filibuster brigade, no cooperation across the isle in any direction. The dynamics of accomplishing good aren't favorable. Then the large portion of our society that are dependent.

Anybody see Bill Maher this week with special guest Eva Longoria? I hate Bill but like to watch to see how libs think..

[reelapeelin]

A shift of power is the point..and one I think is needed cuz it's for sure what's happening now ain't workin'...there may be some fallout over it just because it would upset the status quo...which badly NEEDS to be upset...

I for one was glad to see Pelosi go!!...she makes me wanna toss chunks every time I see her...poster girl for what we get for re-electing career politicians...Graham here in SC is another...WAY TOO powerful...

Arrogance of Power...the longer they stay the larger their arrogance grows and the more disconnected they become from the real reasons they were elected...

[willy]

While in general I think you are right Oz, but if you are throwing the baby out with the bath water that ain't to bright either.
We have a bunch of Tea Party congressmen and senators, and we desperately need more.
Getting rid of what we have been able to get accomplished against the tide in Washington because they have been there four or six years without an evaluation of what they are trying to do, or have done makes zero sense to me.
I think a Constitutional Amendment to restrict politicians to two terms period is a good way to go, but like I said above keep an eye on the baby!

[Destroyer]

Are you sick and tired of the way that Washington politicians are stealing your money? Do you wonder what has happened to our country? To the jobs that used to be here? Are you fed up with $4 a gallon gas at the pumps? Are you struggling to make ends meet because the price of everything keeps rising...and the only thing that isn't rising is your paycheck? Do you secretly suspect that you're being lied to by the very people you thought you could trust? Do you keep seeing your freedoms being taken from you ...a little at a time, but disappearing nevertheless.
Do you want to fish with regulations that make sense for everyone, not just the professional fishermen? If you are tired of all of these things and a lot more, you need to look in the mirror.

The person staring back at you is already a member of the Tea Party..

You just need to listen to him. :beer:

[reelapeelin]

While in general I think you are right Oz, but if you are throwing the baby out with the bath water that ain't to bright either.
We have a bunch of Tea Party congressmen and senators, and we desperately need more.
Getting rid of what we have been able to get accomplished against the tide in Washington because they have been there four or six years without an evaluation of what they are trying to do, or have done makes zero sense to me.
I think a Constitutional Amendment to restrict politicians to two terms period is a good way to go, but like I said above keep an eye on the baby!


There's no question we need to cut spending and balance the budget...but if you just suddenly jerk the rug from under a LARGE population this government has conditioned over many years, number 1 it ain't right and number 2 it'll probably set off riots coast to coast...it's gotta be ratcheted down...you can't just drop folks off in the street and tell 'em sink or swim...if for no other reason the children are always the most hurt...and the most innocent...I fully agree with and support getting back to the fiscal responsibility that Geo W Bush pi$$ed down the drain, killed 5,000 of our soldiers and didn't have the balls to even put the cost on the books, but it doesn't have to be done like barbarians run amuck...I won't support that..

Two terms MAX sounds good, but then they'll just run for another office...so we gotta look at that too...

[willy]

While I will leave the discussion of your rant on Bush to another day so as to not get off point I will say that his transgressions pale in comparison to the monster in office now.

Now, while no one is advocating leaving women and children to starve in the streets, and I think you know that, we cannot even get the demo/socialist party to agree to make cuts to the RATE of growth for future budgets.
Thats how lost they are in their agenda.
Now, anyone who believes we cannot reduce our budget just to 2008 levels without inflicting great harm on society is not really thinking. Period.
Anyone who cannot see that we have created a dependent society (almost 50% ) intentionally in America is also not thinking.
We know financially we cannot sustain our debt growth, period.
We know that our government has already gone to the tax rates that are literally revolutionary confiscatory.
We know that to tax our businesses and our productive people anymore will destroy our economy and reduce the tax revenue's to the government.
We already know that the top ten percent are paying almost 70% of all the federal tax bills to date.
WE know that 47% of Americans pay ZERO federal income taxes.
We also know that our economy which is being controlled by out of control federal central planning is failing in every measure available.
These are policies of socialism, there literally destroying our Nation.
Every working American knows this. What the h@ll, I am going into massive debt getting my four kids through college and trying to keep myself from being killed. Between federal state and local taxes I am paying over 50% of what I make in taxes. That is not counting sales taxes mv registrations insurances I am required to pay for.
But if you are on welfare, if you are an illegal alien, you get a free ride to college.
We have families in the black community who consider the big bread winner in the family the teen age daughter who has six kids from multiple un-named fathers.
We have states that are so far in massive debt due to politician/union cronyism that they will very shortly coming to the federal government to be bailed out by U.S citizens. California and Michigan likely being first in line.
These are the results of decades of left wing engineering, left wing cronyism and there literally is no place in America for anyone supporting these policies that believes in America.
It is killing us.
That is why the Obamination's Campaign Chief stated they have given up on white working class Americans.
Sinful.

[reelapeelin]

These are the results of decades of left wing engineering, left wing cronyism and there literally is no place in America for anyone supporting these policies that believes in America.
It is killing us.
That is why the Obamination's Campaign Chief stated they have given up on white working class Americans.
Sinful.


Decades of Left Wing engineering...hmmm...where was the GOP during all those decades?...did they step out for a SMOKE?....that single point should tell you the individuals we've sent to represent us on BOTH sides of the aisle AIN'T GETTIN it done...why?...cuz they are all there to stuff their pockets...THATS the underlying, root cause of all the problems we got...till we address this and FIX it, all this partisan bickering is pi$$ing in the ocean...for THEIR benefit and OUR loss...

[macojoe]

Not that I vote or anything but just going to predict, 4 more years! Cause Romney is not the guy!! And there isn't anyone else out there, so get use to it!

[RidgeRunner]

I agree with one thing, the argument over who's fault it is. It is all our faults.. Dysfunctional government has been around for as long as I can remember, the party in charge seems to matter not.
GWB started the bailouts much to my chagrin.. I think Paulson was the primary motivator on that one. He scared the crap out of the banks and Congress. The FED is a huge problem in my eyes so are the profiteers on wallstreet, but that is another discussion.

Wellfare- If you need assistance so you can get on your feet I am all for it, but we the working class cannot support the growing line of lifelong wellfare recipients. Nor should anyone who is receiving assistance for 12 consecutive months be allowed to vote, it is a conflict of interest.

Nationwide reforendum on a couple of common sense solutions to problems. Force every member of Congress to pay for their own insurance and go to my doctor where I have to go and see how they like it, or better yet force them into Obamacare!! Force Congress be paid from the same account as Social Security. The only way they could get a check is after Social Security, Wellfare, Medicare, Medicaid, and all social services are funded every month. Require the president to put forth a budget and hold his feet to the fire, then make it a law that Congress follows through with a balanced budget. Period!
Put an end to million dollar campaign contributions and all of the back-alley deals with special interest groups. "Moonlighting" should not be allowed. Then perhaps they could concentrate on something that matters to me.. Not gay rights, amnesty, or debt forgiveness for my neighbors.. If your gay, you have every right to be as gay as you want to be without special laws for your unnatural sexual orientation/choice. Gays have cost countless dollars in their quest for Federal recognition. All they really want is to be able to wed?? so they can receive the benefits that couples are entitled to?? JFC go ahead and give it to them, I can be conservative with fiscal policy and comfortable enough with my sexuality to handle if Fred and Jerry want to get married, WTF!! Stop spending money on it... That shouldn't be the platform elections are made of.
Next census taken will ask your name social and BMI. I disagree with the BS but know what is coming. Better drop a few pounds before I get taxed for my obesity...

[willy]

I understand the doubts about the election in November.
I have some myself, but I know this election will decide the fate of our nation and I know in my heart that the people will change the course.
Obamination is going to be defeated and I would say by a pretty good margin.
And MJ, your not voting and others like you are the reason I have my doubts.
Get off your butt get down to the booth and pull a lever for crying out loud.
Sitting on the side lines and letting sh!t happen to you is one thing. Letting sh!t happen to your Nation is another.
JMHO

[reelapeelin]

I agree with one thing, the argument over who's fault it is. It is all our faults.. Dysfunctional government has been around for as long as I can remember, the party in charge seems to matter not.
GWB started the bailouts much to my chagrin.. I think Paulson was the primary motivator on that one. He scared the crap out of the banks and Congress. The FED is a huge problem in my eyes so are the profiteers on wallstreet, but that is another discussion.

Wellfare- If you need assistance so you can get on your feet I am all for it, but we the working class cannot support the growing line of lifelong wellfare recipients. Nor should anyone who is receiving assistance for 12 consecutive months be allowed to vote, it is a conflict of interest.

Nationwide reforendum on a couple of common sense solutions to problems. Force every member of Congress to pay for their own insurance and go to my doctor where I have to go and see how they like it, or better yet force them into Obamacare!! Force Congress be paid from the same account as Social Security. The only way they could get a check is after Social Security, Wellfare, Medicare, Medicaid, and all social services are funded every month. Require the president to put forth a budget and hold his feet to the fire, then make it a law that Congress follows through with a balanced budget. Period!
Put an end to million dollar campaign contributions and all of the back-alley deals with special interest groups. "Moonlighting" should not be allowed. Then perhaps they could concentrate on something that matters to me.. Not gay rights, amnesty, or debt forgiveness for my neighbors.. If your gay, you have every right to be as gay as you want to be without special laws for your unnatural sexual orientation/choice. Gays have cost countless dollars in their quest for Federal recognition. All they really want is to be able to wed?? so they can receive the benefits that couples are entitled to?? JFC go ahead and give it to them, I can be conservative with fiscal policy and comfortable enough with my sexuality to handle if Fred and Jerry want to get married, WTF!! Stop spending money on it... That shouldn't be the platform elections are made of.
Next census taken will ask your name social and BMI. I disagree with the BS but know what is coming. Better drop a few pounds before I get taxed for my obesity...


Well said top to bottom...I have grown up a lot since the old days of jokes about blacks and gays...all the noise and money wasted is never going to change either....fight it all you want, it is a fact of life the government has no place in being judgemental about...that is not government's function...if two people wanna marry, issue the certificate and collect the fee...JEEZ.

Campaign reform MUST happen...the cost of elections and re elections has gone NUTS...and as they are now, can only end in elected politicians OWING SOMEBODY...

[reelapeelin]

I understand the doubts about the election in November.
I have some myself, but I know this election will decide the fate of our nation and I know in my heart that the people will change the course.
Obamination is going to be defeated and I would say by a pretty good margin.
And MJ, your not voting and others like you are the reason I have my doubts.
Get off your butt get down to the booth and pull a lever for crying out loud.
Sitting on the side lines and letting sh!t happen to you is one thing. Letting sh!t happen to your Nation is another.
JMHO


Joe I wouldn't jump up and get into too big a hurry to get to the polls...as long as the corporations and special interests are running this country, using elected officials to do their bidding...hiding behind the veil of partisan politics, it doesn't matter who's name is over the door anyway...only when we get money out of politics will we have our country back again...

As long as their vote is For Sale...our vote is worthless...every one of us should take to the streets til it's changed...

[willy]

Not good Oz, as long as men of good conscience sit on the side lines we will continue having the problems you describe.
It is the apathy of many in this country that has allowed us to fall into this precipice.
No one is going to come and hand you a government of good people, those irresponsible politicians are not going to defeat themselves.
You have to stand up and be counted. You have to stand on the principles of reducing government and its failings.
Complaining about it solves nothing. Find a Tea party Candidate you like and help him or her get elected to the senate in your state. A Congressman, a Governor, take affirmative action to advance what you believe in, be a part of the solution. At very least take ten minutes of your day and vote.
Otherwise you end up being the problem.

[Destroyer]

Anyone that thinks that their single vote doesn't count has never been in bed with a single mosquito in the room.

You CANNOT just take to the streets.. that's exactly what they want you to do. They have all the good guns, and if a few hundred people die so they can declare martial law and take away ALL our freedoms in the name of perserving peace in the nation, you can bet they will do it. It's a very short step on a very slippery slope from there to a complete socialist dictatorship led country. Just look at Venezuela as a prime example of that course of action.

You MUST vote... less than that and you are doing a diservice to yourself and your Country. Truthfully, I'd rather have someone tell me they voted for the P.O.S. that's sitting in the presidency right now then tell me they didn't care enough about their Country to at least vote. :bat:

[Destroyer]

Decades of Left Wing engineering...hmmm...where was the GOP during all those decades?...did they step out for a SMOKE?....that single point should tell you the individuals we've sent to represent us on BOTH sides of the aisle AIN'T GETTIN it done...why?...cuz they are all there to stuff their pockets...THATS the underlying, root cause of all the problems we got...till we address this and FIX it, all this partisan bickering is pi$$ing in the ocean...for THEIR benefit and OUR loss...

Well, lets see... the Congress and the Senate were controlled by the Democrats for the 40 YEARS before President Clinton took office... and during his term the Republicans finally took control of the Congress and for the first time in 40 years we had a balanced budget. It was called the contract with America.
They cut taxes, the economy soared, the government made more money then they ever had and everything was pretty good... Then they fracked up and started spending money on pork barrel projects just like the Democrats they had kicked out, and by the time President Bush came into office we were almost right back where we started.. So in a way you're correct, but lets lay most of the blame where it belongs,. which is squarely on the backs of the left wing Democrats. 6 years vs 40+ years of control. I think we can all see who's had the more opportunities to correct things and who's lined their pockets more.

Don't misunderstand me, both sides have done a really sh!ty job of running the nation, I completely agree with you. But at least the Republicans just did a sh!ty job... they haven't tried to destroy American and change us into a socialist state.

[jeffmo]

Agendas & bought politicians are what's running this country now.
We need campaign reform....period!
until that happens a politicians vote is up to the highest bidder.
Here In Ohio we had the fight brought to us as public sector workers in the form of what was called SB5.The Republican Governor passed it off to the public as much needed reform to "supposedly" rein in the out of control costs of public sector workers salaries and benefits.In the end it was proven to be a bill that had articles hidden away within it that served no purpose other than to initially weaken and ultimately eliminate public sector unions.
As time went by and these articles were revealed to the public the Republicans pushing the bill were shown to be less than honest in the intentions.
In the end,the bill was voted down by a huge 63% saying NO to it.
This bill,which was very similar to the one in Wisconsin and some other states was simply put,an ALEC agenda item that was put into place by these Republican Governors.The reason for these bils? Well,as I said,the public was told that the new legislation was to help cut skyrocketing public employee costs.Again,when the truth was revealed,their efforts suffered.The true intent of these bils serves only one purpose,to initially weaken and ultimately eliminate public sector unions.the reason is simple.Without the unions the Republican party would have eliminated much of the Democrats ability to finance a Presidential campaign.Here in Ohio the Republican party Chairman publicly stated that their intentions were to "break the union by forcing them to spend their money twice so that they would be broke when the Presidential campaign came around".
IF,and I hope it doesn't happen,the ALEC organization and the Republican party were to be successful,it would cause the largest political power shift this nation has ever witnessed.My personal opinion it that NEITHER party should ever have such lopsided control of our government.
the current situation we are witnessing it that there are 2 dominant views in our nation,the ultra right and the ultra left with no middle ground and very little gets done because of it.

[willy]

That my friend is a very unionesque view of what is going on. Coming from thirty years in a public sector union I know as well that most of what you said is not correct.
The fact opf the matter ois that in many states public sector unions are controlling state politics to the extent that it is destroying the states.
There is no getting around that period. Here in NJ the teachers union for example are crushing the citizens with budgets and taxes that are driving people out of the state.
You cannot afford to live here especially if you are on a fixed income like a retiree.
Unions are contributing their money to left wing social engineering and the heads of the major unions like Trumka are literally out and out communists and freely admit it.
Unions like the AFLCIO and SEIU are the major backers and thugs for the demo/socialist party and everyone in the country knows it.
Many in the unions cannot stand these sh!tbirds but have no say where their money goes.
That is wrong and everyone knows that too.
Unions are a good thing, being organized and making sure working conditions are safe and bargaining for contracts are needed, but what has happened here in the U.S is the public sector workers in particular are earning on average thirty percent more than the people in the private sector doing the same job and those folks are paying their wages and benefits.
On top of that the public sector employees have increased many fold under the Obamination's regime, all for more power to the left in this country.
While I support a private sector unions right to push for their members what we have in this country for decades now is out of control federal and state spending and the wages and benefits for those workers are now bankrupting the country.
Every single tom dick and harry in this country knows it. It is just that the unions, especially their leadership could not care less.
And there in a nut shell is where it is at.

[jeffmo]

That my friend is a very unionesque view of what is going on. Coming from thirty years in a public sector union I know as well that most of what you said is not correct.
The fact opf the matter ois that in many states public sector unions are controlling state politics to the extent that it is destroying the states.
There is no getting around that period. Here in NJ the teachers union for example are crushing the citizens with budgets and taxes that are driving people out of the state.
You cannot afford to live here especially if you are on a fixed income like a retiree.
Unions are contributing their money to left wing social engineering and the heads of the major unions like Trumka are literally out and out communists and freely admit it.
Unions like the AFLCIO and SEIU are the major backers and thugs for the demo/socialist party and everyone in the country knows it.
Many in the unions cannot stand these sh!tbirds but have no say where their money goes.
That is wrong and everyone knows that too.
Unions are a good thing, being organized and making sure working conditions are safe and bargaining for contracts are needed, but what has happened here in the U.S is the public sector workers in particular are earning on average thirty percent more than the people in the private sector doing the same job and those folks are paying their wages and benefits.On top of that the public sector employees have increased many fold under the Obamination's regime, all for more power to the left in this country.
While I support a private sector unions right to push for their members what we have in this country for decades now is out of control federal and state spending and the wages and benefits for those workers are now bankrupting the country.
Every single tom dick and harry in this country knows it. It is just that the unions, especially their leadership could not care less.
And there in a nut shell is where it is at.

Unionesque? well,yours seemed rather TeaPartyesque.
And coming from over 22 years of public fire service I can't say what exactly is happening in any other state(with the exception of Wisconsin) but it's very apparent that you have little knowledge about what has happened here in Ohio over the last year or so.
But let's not beat around the bush here either,it's apparent that you feel pretty much at ease with calling union members thugs and I think that's about a BS statement especially when discussing people like teachers,leo's and firefighters.But everyone has their right to their opinion.mine is this,I personally KNOW what has occurred where I live.I know who brought the dirty fight to who.I saw what was hidden away in our Republican governors' "labor bill" and it was nothing more than BS ALEC backed poor politics.I seem to remember a thread i began a while back where someone questioned whether the firefighters shown at a rally had called in sick.Such assumptions are funny at best to me.
The republicans had MAJOR backing for the anti-labor proposal here in Ohio but didn't legally have to disclose WHO or HOW MUCH had been donated.The people who fought the bill disclosed all donations and where they came from.Why did the Republicans feel the need to hide their benefactors???
To elaborate a little further,the republicans here had proposals submitted to them for changes to the police and fire pension system that would have helped bring the system back into the stipulation of a 30 year solvency that is required by law.The proposals were tabled purposely for one reason,so they would be able to TRY to use it as ammunition for their cause when they introduced their legislation.they TRIED to make it appear as if the public sector workers had better pay and benefits than most in the private sector.When the facts of that matter came to light they found themselves looking VERY foolish to the public and it was a major part of why their bill was voted down by the public with 63% of the voters saying no to it!
You say that "the public sector workers in particular are earning on average thirty percent more than the people in the private sector doing the same job and those folks are paying their wages and benefits." well,here in Ohio the Republicans TRIED to say that number was 41%!!! That too was proven to be wrong.But let me ask this,Here in Ohio public sector workers are also tax payers just the same as private sector workers.If the same applies to where you live then why attempt to make it sound as if they AREN'T? Where I work I pay more taxes than some of the people who I protect! And I'm curious,where is there a comparable in the private sector to firefighting or law enforcement?
and btw,our governor while employed by the Lehman Bros.,lost over $480 million of the police & fire pension fund monies.
Unions contributing to the Democratic party simply balances the scales of big business people like the Koch Bros. and ALEC members contributing to the Republican party.
your assumption that public employees numbers have increased under this President is also flawed concerning safety forces.It's common knowledge in the fire service that many departments across the country have been operating short staffed due to the economy for over 10 years now.Contrary to what you may beleive or think,the IAFF mainly lobbies for safety issues for it's members.Any negotiations contractually is done here in Ohio by members of the local.
And there in a nut shell is where it is at precisely.

[willy]

If you have a different situation in Ohio than the rest of the country with State and federal workers then you may have a point.
And if that is true then you did what you had to do there.
I do know what I said is true in regards to many other states.
I do not know the Koch brothers or any other organization, I speak for what I know and see.
Here in the eastern states and in many of the midwestern states along with California what I said is right on the money.
I am a strong believer that every state should be a right to work state.
Any thing else is un-constitutional and wrong.
I don't care what anyone else says about it.
I remember being down right pissed off at my Police and Fire Union here in NJ for what they did and who they supported many times.
We literally bought democratic politicians every year.
You call that evening the political landscape, no that is graft and corruption.
It also is what has led to the bankrupting of many of our states.
There does not exist the money to pay for the public sector packages that are out there and everyone knows it.
We have kicked the can down the road for decades.
So instead of trying to work it out the large national unions, the large public unions are holding the bought and paid for politicians to their promises and keeping good people from working it out. Yes in a highly unionized state like Ohio and NJ you are going to get the majority to fight common sense reforms.
I do not know all your politicians but I know John Casik (sp)he is a good and decent man and he is trying to turn around a state that is heading into the crapper and he might just make it happen for Ohio if everyone put themselves in the fight together but he has been fought tooth and nail since he got there.
Millions of dollars from democratic and union cofers around the country went into the campaign against him and if you think three or four years from now you are going to be better off in Ohio for the onslaught he is facing I believe you are dead wrong.
The only chance these states, including mine has got is to support common sense reforms, make your states competitive with the rest of the country and attract new jobs and companies. Casik was trying to do that for all the people in your state. I hope Ohio comes through these times well, I wish you and your brother FF all the best.
But I will tell you from what I have seen Governors like him and in Wisconsin and in NJ are trying to save the states from going bankrupt and not paying anyone there pensions and benefits.
They are trying to save the people of Ohio, NJ and WI. And they are not bought and paid for by big labor and that is the reason that the unions are after them.
Because they had the courage to do the right thing and stand up for all the people.
Oh, thank you very much for the Tea Party compliment, I much appreciate that.

[Destroyer]

Jeffmo, I'm not going to quote you, because it would be unnecessarally long and I want to keep this post relatively short.
First, would you please enlighten me..what is this ALEC that you refered to several times? I really don't know and it might help me better understand what you were trying to say. Also, you mentioned leos? Again, I don't know what or who they are. Thanks

As to your post in general, before I start, let me say that because I was both a union member for 10+ years (IBEW-AFL-CIO), and then management for 15 years or so it gives me the unique ability to see both sides perhaps a little clearer than most people.

That being said, your comments are pure union kool-aid. You really need to broaden your horizons and see both sides of the situation.

I don't know about 30% more vs 41% more vs no percent more, but I can tell you from being on the school board here in my home town that the teachers here earn $60,000 average in the public sector, while the teachers in the private schools in the area earn $40,000 per year average. (And the students in the private sector usually get much better grades....go figure.:head:) I can't comment on the fire fighters because we have a volunteer force. And it's hard to put a finger on the police because really there isn't a private sector equivalent.

But the point isn't really about who makes more, or who makes less.. The point is that for a long, long, long, time public sector unions have enjoyed pensions that are simply UNSUSTAINABLE now. I'm not saying that the people that earned them in the past have no right to them. Far from it. They earned it, that was the contract, so be it.. pay them! BUT it's time to start changing the contract for new hires. They need to start paying into their pensions just like everyone in the private sector. They need to start paying for their health care just like everyone in the private sector. The era of the free lunch is OVER. Can't you see that? It used to be that the public sector unions were paid less than private sector people for the same types of jobs, but the trade off was they got a better pension when they retired.. but that's NOT true anymore. Now the public sector unions are making MORE than the private sector people that support them, but they still want the same pensions, they still want the free health care, they still want the free pensions and benefits. The people of this counrty are already paying over 50% of their money in taxes....much of it to support union pay and pensions for public sector employees. Don't you understand? THE WELL IS DRY!!! We don't have the money anymore. We're broke!!

All you (the unions) are to the Democrats is a bunch of stooges. A voting block whose votes they are buying by promising you better this and better that, etc etc etc. But really... do they EVER deliver? Ask yourself, are you better off today then you were in the past? Are you?

And don't parrot the lie that the Democrats feed you that they are for the little people and the Republicans are for big buisness... the fact of the matter is exactly the opposite. Big business is only too happy and activelly supports the Democrats with huge campaign contributions. One only has to look at the heads of GE, GM, Chrysler, Disney, Warner Bros, & MGM for examples. Ditto with Wall Street.. does the name George Soros ring a bell with you? Morgan-Stanley? Bank of America? AIG? Dude.... You're a puppet being used, and you don't even know it. Big business helps both the Democrats & the Republicans, That's how they control you.

Instead of looking down at Tea Party people, perhaps you should actually LISTEN to what they are saying.

You're a good union employee, I have no doubt about that, and I thank you for your service as a firefighter. It's a dangerous job that doesn't get nearly enough recognition. If you want to be an even better fireman, go to a few Tea Party meetings... maybe you'll learn something. Maybe you'll see how you're being used. Maybe you'll stop just spouting party lines. (Not saying you're dumb, just saying that you're woefully misinformed.)

[jeffmo]

I'll try to reply to your post by the point you've made.

First,LEO's are Law enforcement officers.
ALEC is the driving force behind the agenda that many Republican governors have tried to implement in a number of states.A part of their ideals is to eliminate public sector unions.another is to eliminate a number of regulations withing the EPA.Here in Ohio we have just seen another of the abuses of power when our governor and the republican controlled hous & senate submitted a bill that among other things states that doctors do not have to tell safety forces workers,nurses and other workers the direct dangers if they have been exposed to chemicals used in the Hydraulic fracking process.
In Ohio,Michigan,Wisconsin and several other states,the Republican governors have introduced ALEC based legislation such as their anti-union bills.they are so similar that it's impossible to deny that they are a part of the ALEC agenda.only a fool would think that all of these very similar bills were introduced at the same time by sheer coincidence.
Some information about ALEC.

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

MY horizons were broadened last year by getting a thorough education as to what a political agenda looks like first hand! They have been broader than alot of people because I don't vote party lines.I've voted for ALOT of Republican since I first voted in 1977.But what happened here was exactly as I stated.We were un-fairly made to be scapegoats for a budget problem that didn't exist.I was at our statehouse when Ohios anti-labor bill was introduced.The Senator who introduced it was so ver ignorant about what was in the bill that when she was questioned by committee members about it she actually looked very foolish because she continually said that she didn't know many of the specifics o the bill.As i said earlier,the Ohio Police & Firefighters board people had submitted necessary pension changes to the lawmakers and they were sat on simply for political reasons.It wasn't too hard of a battle to win because almost every time the pro side would bring a new Ad out or one of their reps would speak about it,they were proven to be wrong and the voters saw through it.It was a farce to say the least.
I can't speak for how things are done or handled in the IBEW-AFL-CIO or any other union.My experience is within the Fire and I do have some knowledge of the workings of the Police union.But i can say that The democrats didn't bring this battle to us.It was definately the Republicans.And their agenda was/is to eliminate their competition.I don't appreciate being put in themiddle of a political war the was we were.We had no choice but to fight back or be forced to do a very dangerous jobs for about 15% less because IF Senate Bill 5 HAD passed,that was the paycut we were facing.Now,don't think that it was simply about money.They wanted to change collective bargaining so much that we would have had NO voice in matters such as negotiating for safety equipment.We would have been at the mercy of local elected officials for everything from fire gloves to new trucks and everything in between.THAT would have been disasterous!
We do pay into our pensions as do people in the private sector.Do people who work for a private company pay 100% of their Social Security?, no they do not.
For us,our pension is it.IF we work a 2nd job we can qualify for SS but it is at such a reduced rate that it is hardly worth the effort.If there IS a "free lunch" program I hav'e found the line for it yet!

This statement is simply wrong:

"Now the public sector unions are making MORE than the private sector people that support them, but they still want the same pensions, they still want the free health care, they still want the free pensions and benefits."

As I said in my other post.the Republicans here in Ohio TRIED to say publicly that the average public sector worker made 41% more than a comparable in the private sector.Well,it was researched and when it was made public that it just wasn't so they lost face and steam for their fight.
Personally I seriously doubt that you or many other people would do my job for the pay I receive.After 21 years and a promotion,I top out at a shade over $40k per year.I would have walked had SB5 passed.not because I would have been pissed because of the cuts made but because I simply could not have made ends meet by taking a 15% cut.I knew going in that I'd never get rich by being a firefighter but I never thought that myself and the other people in my line of work(plus teachers,and LEOs) would have EVER been made out to be scapegoats needlessly.
What many people don't realize is that due to the economy,many departments have been operating short staffed for over 10 years now.During that time our department like many others have taken pay freezes and agreed to higher insurance contributions plus,began providing EMS services which in our case,and we're a smallish department,brings in an average of $375-$400k per year! So despit what some may beleive, we are doing MORE with less and for less.
As i have said,the Republican brought this fight to us.Do we historically back the Democrats,in the fire service the answer is yes. here in Ohio the FOP has backed Republican candidates more often than not.but,last year when the same republican senate candidates asked different FOP locals for their backing,they were asked IF they would still back collective bargaining.they answered yes but when the vote for SB5 rolled around they went back on their word.Most of the 8 or 9 will probably be voted out of office because their words cannot be trusted.
Have the Democrats delivered for the fire union? definately yes! they have backed many different laws that help us where safety is concerned.they backed us after 9-11 by helpng sick rescue workers get the help they needed after exposure problems related to groung zero.

"
Instead of looking down at Tea Party people, perhaps you should actually LISTEN to what they are saying."
I don't beleive that I have done any such thing.I simply stated to willy that his response sounded "teapartyesque".Nothing more than being told how My post sounded "unionesque". I don't care for what many of the teaparty factions have morphed into in recent years but I do not look down on anyone for beleiving in what they choose to.
My opinion is that i over the last year and a half,I've learned more about BOTH parties than a great many people have or ever will.I was forced to.I hate politics.It' the worst part of my job.But,BECAUSE i work for politicians,I like the ability that we have to negotiat a legally binding agreement that BOTH entities must abide to.It helps to prevent us from being kicked around for political reasons.and beleive me,it most definately happens!
My personal beleif is that the MAJOR problem we now have in this country is the Ultra right and Ultra left extremist views that have divided us.It seems as if people are brainwashed by either Fox news or MSNBC and don't seem to have the ability to educate themselves about politicians or issues any more.little gets accomplished when both sides do nothing but point the finger at each other and attempt to lay blame.Both sides share the blame.

[jeffmo]

Willy,please explain to me FACTUALLY why you say this?:

"I do not know all your politicians but I know John Casik (sp)he is a good and decent man and he is trying to turn around a state that is heading into the crapper and he might just make it happen for Ohio if everyone put themselves in the fight together but he has been fought tooth and nail since he got there."

He's pulled more underhaned tactics since he took office than most other Governors combined!
I'll list some of the things he's done but several are that:

When Senate Bill 5 went to committe and was about to be vote on Kasich found out that one of the Republican Senators(Seitz) was going to vote No on it's passage.Kasich had him replaced by using an article that allows for a member to be replaced in cases of emergency or family problems,etc.NOT because the Governor disagrees on how the member was going to vote.

When meeting were held on SB5 they were done so w/out asking Democrats to sit in on the meetings.Their input was never asked for!

When ammendments to the bill were made a copy was hand delivered to the Columbus Dispatch(a Kasich backer) before the democrats were allowed to see them.The Democrats were given a copy 1/2 hour before they went back into session.

Kasich,early in his term was pulled over in Columbus by a Coumbus Police officer.Later while speaking about the incident(Kasich being in the wrong!),Kasich repeatedly called the officer and "Idiot".

His "jobsOhio" program is now probably headed to court due to so many questions about it's legality (tax dollars being used for a private business!).BTW,the same type of situation id going on in Indiana with their Governor).

Allowing the fracking process to start up in our state parks.If that wasn't bad enough he changed regulations that allowed the process to happend even closer to campground and water sources.

Now,those are just a few that i remembered off the top of my head.If you'd like i can post more examples.So pardon me but please don't try to tell me what a great guy he is,myself and alot of the people here in Ohio happen to know better because of his actions not what he says on Fox news.He is just one of so many newly elected Republican Governors who are attempting to push the ALEC agenda.

[Destroyer]

Thanks for the definition on leos.. Never heard of that term used before, but then again, that's not my field so that's not unusual.

Since there was no specific definition for ALEC, I went searching on the internet. This is what I found on Wikipedia.

The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is an 501(c)3 American charitable and educational organization, comprised of conservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservativism_in_the_United_States) thinkers, state legislators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_legislature_(United_States)) of both parties, businesses and foundations that exists for the purpose of drafting research, policy papers and model legislation to assist and influence state legislatures and promote free-market and conservative ideas. According to the organization's website, members share a common belief that "government closest to the people" is "fundamentally more effective, more just, and a better guarantor of freedom than the distant, bloated federal government in Washington, D.C." ALEC is perhaps best known for drafting model legislation on issues such as tax treatment of corporations, tightening voter identification rules, and promoting gun rights, that can be easily adopted by state legislators and introduced as legislation. ALEC also serves as a networking tool among state legislators, allowing them to research the handling and "best practices" of policy in other states.
ALEC currently has more than 2,000 legislative members representing all 50 states, amounting to nearly one-third of all sitting legislators, as well as more than 85 members of Congress and 14 sitting or former governors who are considered alumni. ALEC also claims approximately 300 corporate, foundation, and other private-sector members.

Interesting. It appears that at least one orginazition is actually trying to do something about the bloated government in Washington.

I'm at work right now and don't really have the time to address the rest of the post, but I wanted to thank you for the definition of leos and share with everyone the defination of ALEC. More later.

[willy]

That type of conservative organization, just like the Tea Party is in the sights of the public sector unions and the vilifying of both as right wingers is the problem American Citizens are having.
Just as the speaking the truth has become hate speech in the eyes of the left in this country so has anything which promotes responsibility in how the government does business is right wing.
No one is putting the blame soley on union workers, nor on the bought and paid for politicians. It is on both groups not acting responsibly or ethically.
And now the discussion is turning to what have we wrought.
We have pensions and health liabilities we cannot pay period, NJ alone is 40 BILLION DOLLARS in the red in their mishandling and mis managing the public sector pension fund.
The private sector saw this coming two decades ago and switched their employees to private held 401k type plans, and the medical benefits are being payed by various amounts of contributions from the members along with the companies.
They are sharing the pain.
We must change the future benefits packages for the public sector unions, everyone who looks at the numbers knows this.
But God forbid an honest politician tries to get it done.
Vilified and targeted by multi million dollar national campaigns to destroy them.
This is the left demo/progressive/socialist party in America and the big unions especially are their main supporters.
Fire fighters, teachers, sanitation workers, police, EMS etc. etc. are going to have to make serious changes for all new hires.
It is coming, there is no choice, it must be done for the survival of all the states and our country.

[jeffmo]

Here in Ohio our Governor said that passing SB5 was a must to balance his budget.It was defeated soundly and he still balanced his budget.It's been very dirty politics here and it doesn't look like it's going to get clean any time soon!
You'll get no argument out of me that the pension system that I'm a part of needed changes.But,as I have said,those changes were submitted and were sat on for political reasons.They were made recently.added service years,increased employee contributions are a couple of the major changes that have been made.
Just out of curiosity,what exactly happend to so many 401ks after wall street got their hands on that money? It's the same thing that happened to the $480 million of Ohio Police & Fire pension monies and it happened a week or so ago when we witnessed another mega bank that made "bad choices".CALpers(the California Public employees retirement system) had about $600 million with that bank.I wonder if the money will be returned or if it will be "lost"!
Overall,I blame Politicians,the money that they waste and greed within big business for the situation we're now in.

[willy]

We'll have to agree to disagree my friend, good luck to you and yours out in Ohio. Make it out safe!

[awthacker]

Here in Ohio our Governor said that passing SB5 was a must to balance his budget.It was defeated soundly and he still balanced his budget.It's been very dirty politics here and it doesn't look like it's going to get clean any time soon!
You'll get no argument out ofme that the pension system that I'm a part of needed changes.But,as I have said,those changes were submitted and were sat on for political reasons.They were made recently.added service years,increased employee contributions are a couple of the major changes that have been made.
Just out of curiosity,what exactly happend to so many 401ks after wall street got their hands on that money? It's the same thing that happened to the $480 million of Ohio Police & Fire pension monies and it happened a week or so ago when we witnessed another mega bank that made "bad choices".CALpers(the California Public employees retirement system) had about $600 million with that bank.I wonder if the money will be returned or if it will be "lost"!
Overall,I blame Politicians,the money that they waste and greed within big business for the situation we're now in.

401k's, just like your pension, took a beating. I'm not sure how acknowledging that proves anything. What I love about my 401k is that I decide where to invest. Currently, I'm 100% in a gold/special minerals fund. I lost 10% last week. My own gamble, and I think it will turn out well. Would you suggest that I never should have been allowed to invest my savings (for my own protection, of course)?

[jeffmo]

401k's, just like your pension, took a beating. I'm not sure how acknowledging that proves anything. What I love about my 401k is that I decide where to invest. Currently, I'm 100% in a gold/special minerals fund. I lost 10% last week. My own gamble, and I think it will turn out well. Would you suggest that I never should have been allowed to invest my savings (for my own protection, of course)?

Absolutely not.I'd never try t tell someone what they should do with their money.
My point in saying that the 401ks took a beating was to prove that pension systems took a hit just as the 401ks did.For some reason,some folks actually beleived that they(pensions) had remained untouched.Everyone got took in my opinion.

[spareparts]

I guess now i know why half of Ohio has moved to Charleston
:nut:

[awthacker]

Absolutely not.I'd never try t tell someone what they should do with their money.
My point in saying that the 401ks took a beating was to prove that pension systems took a hit just as the 401ks did.For some reason,some folks actually beleived that they(pensions) had remained untouched.Everyone got took in my opinion.

Nobody got took, though. People's investments went south. Blame whoever you want... the brokers, the banks, how about the folks who handed y'alls money over to them, how about you guys for putting those guys in charge of your pension. The problem is that nobody saw it coming. Now that the pension money is cut in half... where's the money for all the long-term benefits packages gonna come from? My understanding is that I should pay more tax to make up for it, even though nobody's gonna step up and replenish my 401K. Now I'm making high-risk investments to get my retirement plan back on track. I'm just as bummed as you are, but I take responsibility for not paying attention when the market crashed.

[Destroyer]

In my old job with the power and light co, I had a 401K there. When the dot coms crashed, I got killed just like everyone else. (I lost about $20K) . I put the rest in a capital preservation fund. (Short term, very secure investments) that has returned me 2 1/2% interest per quarter for the last 15 years. I could have gambled on other investments, but because of my age I wanted somethng secure. Fact is, because of the economy, in the long term I've out performed all the other funds, even with the recession that's ongoing. I just used some of that money as a partial down payment on my new home. To me it was very similar to having the money in a bank savings account with a guranteeed rate of return. My present job I have a Roth 401K so all that money will be mine when it's withdrawn, not mine and the governments like a traditional 401K. I love the idea of 401ks, because of their versitility.
Just like AWTHACKER, they allow me to do whats best for me, in my situation, under my control. I get to choose where my money goes.

[Destroyer]

Ok, actually you raise some valid points... like everything else in life there are always 3 sides to every story.. What both sides say and what really happened. Like you, I'll try to reply to your post by the points you've made.

Some information about ALEC.

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed (http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed)

I followed that link, and read the "information" that was contained therein.
I found it biased and misleading beyond belief. With a LOT of digging I found that Alecexposed.org claims it is a member of a group of other activist orginazitations, among them are PRWatch.org, SourceWatch.org, BanksterUSA.org, Foodrightsnetwork.org, and AtrazineExposed.org. These are all part of the Center for Media and Democracy, and are all funded by ....you guessed it....George Soros.

The site goes to great lenghts to expose how Governor Walker has ruined Wisconson and why there is an effort to recall him. So lets look at the truth, not what the site says. For more than a generation in Wisconsin, the power of special interests and the liberal elite have gone largely unchecked. Gov Walkers administration finally stood up to them, and they changed the way they did things in government in Wisconsin. That's why his opponents are trying to recall him. They want to roll back the clock and take us back to the days of skyrocketing taxes, bloated budgets, and unchecked and unaccountable spending. The day he became Governor, he set about the work that the people of Wisconsin sent him to do. He eliminated the deficit left by his Democrat predecessor. HE gave the freedom of choice to public employees. The reforms have allowed public employees to decide if they would like to spend (in some cases more than a thousand dollars a year in dues) or keep their hard earned money. They finally put the control of state government back where it belongs, in the hands of the people. He kept his promises to the voters in Wisconsin. He didn’t raise taxes. There were not the massive lay offs of state workers that his opponents said would happen. His reforms have balanced the budget and lowered the unemployment rate to a level unseen since 2008.

ALEC is not just about Wisconsin or Ohio, it is about the cause of reform across this country. It is about deciding what kind of country we are going to be for generations to come. We must send a message that we can and will live within our means. We must not hand power back to a small group of special interests and let them run state governments into the ground across this great nation for their own gains.

The Senator who introduced it was so very ignorant about what was in the bill that when she was questioned by committee members about it she actually looked very foolish because she continually said that she didn't know many of the specifics of the bill.

Much like Nancy Pelosi when she said she didn't know what was in the Health Care Bill and that Congress had to pass it before they could find out what was contained inside it?

Of course ALEC has a political agenda. It's agenda is to reduce a bloated federal government and bring more control back to the states. It also is trying to reduce the tax impact on every single citizen of this Country. The way you do that is by reducing spending. I'm NOT saying that everything they do is perfect and above board...no organization is perfect. But in order to reduce spending you must do EXACTLY that ...REDUCE spending on all levels. Obviously there are certain things you cannot reduce in the interests of the safety of the citizens. (You cannot abolish the police force or Fire Dept. for example) But you can cut back on out of control unions that are used to getting everything they want year after year. Again, like I said before, I'm not saying that what was earned before should be reduced... a contract is a contract. But I am saying that reductions need to be made. And I'm putting my own self where my mouth is.... My wife works for the DMV in our state. She's had her work hours changed, reduced and her pay has been frozen for two years now. Plus she gets unpaid furlow days. It hurts us financially of course. So I'm feeling the pinch just like you. But I recognise that it's necessary if we are to close the 40 BILLION dollar deficit that our previous Governors on both sides rolled up ...much of it to corrupt politicians, contractors and out of control unions. This is exactly the kind of thing ALEC is trying to stop, contrary to the lies that George Soros would have you believe.

I can't speak for how things are done or handled in the IBEW-AFL-CIO or any other union. But i can say that The democrats didn't bring this battle to us.It was definately the Republicans.

Well, thank God for the Republicans. At least some party is trying to cut the out of control spending!!

We had no choice but to fight back or be forced to do a very dangerous jobs for about 15% less because IF Senate Bill 5 HAD passed,that was the paycut we were facing

As I've said many time, a contract is a contract. Those that agreed to the terms of that contract should, by all means, reap them. New hires, on the other hand, should not get those benefits. If it was a 15% or a 1% pay cut doesn't really matter.. A persons sells themselves for the pay they are offered. If it's 15% less than people that are already employed then so be it.. They don't have to take the job. If 15% is necessary for the survival of all the citizens of the State then 15% it is.. This is much too serious a matter for lying. So if they were truly lying then they deserved to be defeated.. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between the two points of view.

We would have been at the mercy of local elected officials for everything from fire gloves to new trucks and everything in between.THAT would have been disasterous!

Why? The citizens of your state pay your saleries...the local elected officials are their duly elected representives with a fiducary responsibility to the citizens to oversee spending . Absloutely they should have a say in what they buy.


This statement is simply wrong:
"Now the public sector unions are making MORE than the private sector people that support them, but they still want the same pensions, they still want the free health care, they still want the free pensions and benefits."

It is not wrong, I provided first hand knowledge that, in the case of the teachers union at least, it is 100% factual.

As I said in my other post.the Republicans here in Ohio TRIED to say publicly that the average public sector worker made 41% more than a comparable in the private sector.Well,it was researched and when it was made public that it just wasn't so they lost face and steam for their fight.

Researched by who? What was the actual percentage? I'd be interested in knowing what was made public. Do you have a source for that claim?

Personally I seriously doubt that you or many other people would do my job for the pay I receive.

Very true. First, I'm too old, second, I live in the tri-state area, with the highest taxes and saleries in the Nation. But I was a volunteer member of the New Jersey Forest Fire Service for several years, and I've fought my share of fires... the worst one being in Bass River State forest back in the 70's. I've eaten my share of smoke.

Little gets accomplished when both sides do nothing but point the finger at each other and attempt to lay blame. Both sides share the blame.

On that I agree 100%, which is exactly WHY the Tea Party exists. We're just average citizens that are mad as hell at the lies that have been fed to us by both parties. Presently we're engaged in a war to remove the RINO's (Republicans In Name Only) from our party and the Socialist Democrats of the left from our Government. We're not a bunch of kooks, racists, radicals, or monsters that the left and their controlled media dogs have led you to believe. We are you. We are everyman and everywoman in this country that wants our freedoms and our Country back. Your very future and the future of your wife and kids depends on our success. Join us..

[jeffmo]

Nobody got took, though. People's investments went south. Blame whoever you want... the brokers, the banks, how about the folks who handed y'alls money over to them, how about you guys for putting those guys in charge of your pension. The problem is that nobody saw it coming. Now that the pension money is cut in half... where's the money for all the long-term benefits packages gonna come from? My understanding is that I should pay more tax to make up for it, even though nobody's gonna step up and replenish my 401K. Now I'm making high-risk investments to get my retirement plan back on track. I'm just as bummed as you are, but I take responsibility for not paying attention when the market crashed.

well,you're correct,to a point.the people with the pension fund who agreed to invest made their decision.but,their decisions were also made on some supposed built up claims.either way,it is a gamble and we lost.I doubt that many people outside of Ohio know this but,Our current Governor was the one who lobbies the Police & fire pension to invest the now lost $480 million.
In Ohio no one is asking anyone except for the pension members to make up the losses.the changes include more years of service,added contributions costs,etc. No proposed tax increases have been taken to the public.

[RidgeRunner]

Wage freeze in the private sector here since 2006. Salary is less than a starting teacher here in FL and there are few benefits. It would be impossible to make it without a second income. So I can't listen to too much complaining from public sector employees. You don't have to look far to find someone else worse off so we are grateful to have a job and keep plugging.

IMO the best thing about 401k is the match, second best is allowing the contributions to be invested however you want.LOL... No investment tool is as nice as the company matching your contribution.
My Putnum IRA was such a POS. It lost big during Clinton (.com bubble), Bush (thanks to 9/11) then later with Bush and Obama, finally bailed out paying the penalty with less than I started with.(and that was before the penalty) We have all been duped..
How can you get ahead when inflation is in double digits (I know it isn't advertised as such but it is and it compounds) and your safe money is only earning you 1 or 2 percent?? Meanwhile the FED keeps printing the stuff so they can reduce the burden on paying back China.. One thing the volatility in the markets has taught me, it is all smoke and mirrors. Being told the market will come back while govt. spending is out of control just ain't cutting it. I tightened my belt, the best leaders are the ones that lead by example.. Without the Tea Party rolling back spending, who else is gonna do it?

Three boxes for Democracy - Soap, Ballot, Ammo.

[jeffmo]

Destroyer,
I gave that link to ALEC to show what is going on.They have an "official" site also.the truth is that there were so many anti public unions bills that were introduced by these newly elected governors which were basically identical, that there was little doubt that there was a connection.After some digging it was found that they were a part of the ALEC agenda.
Now,agree with their plans or not it makes no difference but,there's little doubt where these bills came from.
Reducing spending is fine but,where is the reduction where it comes to the high salaries and bonuses of some of these company high ups? we witnessed some of their concerns after the bailouts when they continued with business as usuall with those bonuses.To work fairly,there has to be give and take from everyone not just the people working for a living.
Walker gave no freedoms.I can't speak for the workers of Wisconsin but There are no safety forces workers in Ohio where union membership is mandatory.I beleive the same goes for most other public sector workers also.Now,no proof but i would say that the same would be true in Wisconsin.Ohio's version of Walkers bill was SB5 and we heard the very same thing about how it would save jobs and was needed to balance the budget.simply put,it wasn't true.the bill failed soundly,there were no layoffs and the budget was balanced.
I agree that we should never be controlled by a small group but thast just isn't the current case here.No one is holding our state hostage now or have they in the past.Our collective bargaing laws were passed in 1983 and have worked very well for the employers and the workers because it gave BOTH a means to negotiate and agree to terms that in many cases save money.

To be truthful I really hated it when Pelosi made that statement and I certainly do not agree with everything our President has done or said(probably never will w/ ANY President).But,so did alot of the republican,teapartiers and democrats.But,to use that as a means to justify another wrong or say "Much like Nancy Pelosi" makes absolutely no sense at all.Are we keeping score?? I genuinely was embarassed to hear how poorly Senator Jones was prepared to answer questions about SB5.It seemed to have set the tone for the entire pro/anti campaign on the bill.

Let me make a point a little clearer.
Sb5's failing didn't translate into safety forces being given a blank check to buy whatever we want as far as safety equipment goes.As an example,when we need to make a purchase for a piece of equipment there are laws in place that we must abide by to make sure that the best product is specked out for the money that has been alloted,a fair system of bidding is in place,etc..What the concern was that IF SB5 had passed we would have had NO voice at the negotiations table whatsoever for anything from gloves to a new Engine.Take the time and imagine being at the mercy of an elected officials opinion of what their definition of "safe" is when purchasing equipment that is used for the safety of the public AND the firefighters.The stipulations of the bill would have kept collective bargaining in place by name only.the fact was that after any negotiations,the employer would have had the final say in ALL matters.THAT would not have been "bargaining" at all.But,they decided to keep it in place by name in an attempt to fool the voters by saying that it was still in place.

You say "Well, thank God for the Republicans. At least some party is trying to cut the out of control spending" as if only the Democrats have been guilty.
Well,I've witnessed out of control spending that has been done equally by BOTH parties.I have also seen the results of it AND the bad economy.While some of that spending was taking place,We had layoffs which equalled critically un-safe manning.All while some "pet projects" were completed by politicians.
If you don't beleive anything else I tell you,you can beleive that no one hates seeing wasted money more than I do.It's made my job alot more dangerous and much more difficult.Most departments here have also seen the same thing happen.

Here is one of the sources that somewhat explains the truth about pay differences between private and public sector workers.In the case of firefighters though it's pretty difficult to have a comparable in the private sector.Now,if you do not give any credit to the source then I'll be willing to look at any others but,the truth is that the Pro SB5 people did inflate the numbers where public service workers pay was concerned.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/21/947132/-Wisconsin-Ohio-public-employees-are-not-overpaid

Now,I'll say that I am also a middle of the road type where politics are concerned.I know that might not seem that way where this topic is concerned but it is very true.I've voted republican as well as democrat over the years. but I'll say that I am a democrat more so than a Republican when it comes to declaring one party or the other.My personal opinion is that we now have a divided nation with the majority of the people having either ultr right or ultra left views.until that ceases little will get accomplished.
We have witnessed some pretty dirty politics during the entire SB5 ordeal here.I'll be the first to admit that the democrats aren't blameless either.like I said,I didn't agree with Pelosi and personally do not like her at all.But a very telling fact about SB5 was that when the bill was introduced by the governor,pushed through the house and senate,the idea to include the politicians in it was brought up and it was shot down with no talks! At the same time the new budget was introduced there was an addition that would have reduced the senate and house salaries by 5%.it was also shot down with no talk.But,SB5 would have cut all affected employees overall salaries by 12%-15%.Where is the leadership by example that is so badly needed?
LIke I said,you'll find no one that hates wasted money in the public sector more than I do.I just beleive that the blame was wrongly placed and that proposals to fix the problems within the police & fire pension system were sat on instead of being implemented which told me that they were more interested in playing politics than they were fixing a problem.Since then the changes have been made and workers are paying more towards pensions and putting in more years of service among other things.
Now,I'm gonna go back to talking about boats and fishing!
I sure hope that I haven't created any hard feelings with this discussion.

[Destroyer]

I sure hope that I haven't created any hard feelings with this discussion.

Of course not. Discussions are exactly that. Discussions. It's how we, as a species, communicate. They are how we exchange ideas .....how we learn.