Engine fire

[Destroyer]

Well, I found out what the problem was with my engine. Seems I had a little fire. Number 6 cylinder must have blown back out the reed block because that's the one that the carb body is badly burned. Number 5 is also burned slightly, but will be replaced. What IDIOT decided to make carb bodies out of plastic????? You can put out a fire on a metal body, clean thngs up and motor home. Plastic burns for Gods sake.. what the heck were they thinking?? :cen: :cen:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Destroyer511/Engine%20fire/enginefire006.jpg

The number six was so badly burned that the idle and intermediate jets were clogged with melted plastic...so of course it wasn't running right.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Destroyer511/Engine%20fire/enginefire007.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Destroyer511/Engine%20fire/enginefire008.jpg

Anyways two new (used) carbs are on their way to me. Meanwhile I've removed the butterfly plates and mounting plate behind it. A visual inspection of the reeds looks like they are ok, but I'll remove the reed blocks tomorrow and clean and check them to make sure the petals are all ok. fun fun fun..:head:

[Skools Out]

um i noticed you have your motor listed as 200 hp but that's a 225 motor. those are 225 carbs which makes your motor a 225. hope you bought the right carb bodies.

[Destroyer]

um i noticed you have your motor listed as 200 hp but that's a 225 motor. those are 225 carbs which makes your motor a 225. hope you bought the right carb bodies.

LOL.... Skools, I'd love it to be a 225, but alas, it's only a 200. Those are Type IV carbs, used on 200 and 225 V6's from 1986 forward and on 120 and 140 V4's from 1985 forward, according to my service manual. In all cases, I contacted the company that did the original rebuild of the motor, they looked up the serial number in their records and are the ones sending me the carbs.

It still doesn't explain how anyone could be so dumb as to make a carb body out of plastic. Talk about a fire hazzard! I'm ready to pull the engine and strap my 200 Merc on.

[Blue_Runner]

Good work Destroyer!

[Skools Out]

hate to tell ya but the 200 carbs were not the same those are 225 carbs. the 225 carbs have 3 screws in the butterflies and 200 carbs have 2 screws. unless your motor is an XP model which was actually a 225 in 200 skin.

[Skools Out]

these are 200 carbs.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a46/Skools_Out/Motors/MVC-049S.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a46/Skools_Out/Motors/MVC-055S.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a46/Skools_Out/Motors/MVC-050S.jpg

these are the 225 carbs

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a46/Skools_Out/Motors/MVC-051S.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a46/Skools_Out/Motors/MVC-053S.jpg


notice how much larger the throats are on the 225 carbs they are hugh compared to the 200's

[Destroyer]

these are 200 carbs. These are the 225 carbs. Notice how much larger the throats are on the 225 carbs they are huge compared to the 200's

Skools, when you're hot you're hot. I stand corrected on the carbs. It's wierd that the service manual makes no mention of the different size of the venturi. Thanks for pointing it out... I learned something today :) Since this is a rebuilt/repainted motor I have no way of knowing what it started out as. Unfortunately all there is is a serial number, no model number. I've always gone by the cowling that says Johnson 200 on it as you can see in my avatar pic. It may very well be an XP. I do know that she's got a ton of power...scary actually. Like I said, the people that rebuilt the motor are sending me the carb bodies.... lets see what they send me based on their records.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Definately 225 carbs. Also make sure that you get the right ones and swap ALL of the jets INCLUDING the brass pick-up tubes inside of the bowls. OMC made ALOT of changes to the pick-up tubes from year to year, and even sometimes had 3 different variations in the same year. I would also pull the intake off and replace the reeds. If it backfired hard enough to pop out the carbs, then the reeds will have micro cracks in them from it. And when a metal reed breaks, it will go through the engine and either knock a hole in the block in the rod slot(best case scenario), OR it will destroy a piston and sleeve and could even push the sleeve through the head.

[Destroyer]

Definately 225 carbs. Also make sure that you get the right ones and swap ALL of the jets INCLUDING the brass pick-up tubes inside of the bowls. OMC made ALOT of changes to the pick-up tubes from year to year, and even sometimes had 3 different variations in the same year. I would also pull the intake off and replace the reeds. If it backfired hard enough to pop out the carbs, then the reeds will have micro cracks in them from it. And when a metal reed breaks, it will go through the engine and either knock a hole in the block in the rod slot(best case scenario), OR it will destroy a piston and sleeve and could even push the sleeve through the head.

Fermanator, I already have the reed blocks off and cleaned. To my machinist practiced eye they look ok. There's about a .005 - .010 gap between the petals and the base on all of them, and that's what the book says is ok, but I've have already made the decision to replace them. I don't want to take this engine apart a second time, so am going to take my time and make sure the front end is all ok before I put the engine back in service. Good call about the 2 brass pick up tubes inside of the bowls.. I didn't know that OMC made different sizes...(although it doesn't surprise me). I'll make sure they are the same and if not I'll change them out. Do they pull out or are they screwed in? I've already cleaned all the servicable carbs and carefully pulled and ID'ed the idle, intermediate and high speed jets from the other two carbs so I can put them into the new bodies when they arrive. All passages have been cleaned and blown out with compressed air in all the bodies and the butterfly plates behind them. Anything else I should be looking out for? Thanks for all the help guys... most appreciated!!!:beer:

[nymack66]

Check both the throttle bodies and the replacement carbs if any warped with all that heat from the fire ?
Also I think you have six petals reeds ? If yes I have OEM spares ..let me know ...

[spareparts]

I allways said that OMC should have drug tested their engeneers for some of the ideas they came up with.

As far as teh carb bases being warped, I've had good luck sanding them flat on a hard surface with adhesive backed sand paper , you have to let part of the body hang over teh edge

[THEFERMANATOR]

I would HIGHLY reccomend that you DON'T run the stock metal reeds again. They are an accident waiting to happen IMHO. I run TONY DOUKAS RACING REEDS in my engine, and will run them in all of my 2 smokes from now on. They don't warp and leak like BOYESENS do, and have all of there advantages. The pick-up tubes just press in. I carefully use a pair of medium sized pliers and wiggle them and slide em out, then just press em into the new ones. Just make sure that you press em in all the way(carefully).

http://www.bansheedepot.com/categories.asp?cat=29

[Destroyer]

I allways said that OMC should have drug tested their engeneers for some of the ideas they came up with.

As far as teh carb bases being warped, I've had good luck sanding them flat on a hard surface with adhesive backed sand paper , you have to let part of the body hang over teh edge

I'll put them on a surface plate tomorrow.. They don't look warped, but you never know... And yes, it's criminal to make carbs out of plastic... talk about an accident waiting to happen...

[Destroyer]

I would HIGHLY reccomend that you DON'T run the stock metal reeds again. They are an accident waiting to happen IMHO. I run TONY DOUKAS RACING REEDS in my engine, and will run them in all of my 2 smokes from now on. They don't warp and leak like BOYESENS do, and have all of there advantages. The pick-up tubes just press in. I carefully use a pair of medium sized pliers and wiggle them and slide em out, then just press em into the new ones. Just make sure that you press em in all the way(carefully).

http://www.bansheedepot.com/categories.asp?cat=29

Doesn't look like they make OMC reeds... just Yamaha and Banshee.. or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.. Thanks on the pick up tube proceedure.. :)

[THEFERMANATOR]

Doesn't look like they make OMC reeds... just Yamaha and Banshee.. or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.. Thanks on the pick up tube proceedure.. :)

Call him, he's got em. I know because I have a set in my 225HP EVINRUDE.

[nymack66]

Ferm is right I am not impress with the Boyseen Reeds, I have a set of CCM reeds I will install when it cools down here in FL ..

[THEFERMANATOR]

Ferm is right I am not impress with the Boyseen Reeds, I have a set of CCM reeds I will install when it cools down here in FL ..

I've got a set of BOYESENS in my toolbox that oly have 4 hours on em. That's how long they lasted before they started leaking and coughing at idle. The single stage carbon reeds are much better reeds. TONY DOUKAS and CRIS CARSON both make single stage reeds.

[Destroyer]

Call him, he's got em. I know because I have a set in my 225HP EVINRUDE.

Great!!! Will do..thanks!!!

[Destroyer]

Nymack66, I'm sorry, I missed your first post about having OEM reeds. Yes, they are 6 pedal reeds. Lets see how I do with the carbon reeds, and if not then I'll get back to you on buying your OEM ones. Many thanks for the offer!!!!

[THEFERMANATOR]

Nymack66, I'm sorry, I missed your first post about having OEM reeds. Yes, they are 6 pedal reeds. Lets see how I do with the carbon reeds, and if not then I'll get back to you on buying your OEM ones. Many thanks for the offer!!!!

The carbon reeds are the way to go IMHO. I've got an old set of 225 reeds I'll send yeah for the cost of shipping if you want em. I don't trust steel reeds enough to run em anymore.

[Destroyer]

The carbon reeds are the way to go IMHO. I've got an old set of 225 reeds I'll send yeah for the cost of shipping if you want em. I don't trust steel reeds enough to run em anymore.

LOL I love this site... It's better than a yard sale. Everyone sends everyone everything. I just sent Macojoe the main driven gear for his powerwinch for the cost of postage and now I can get a set of carbon reeds for the same price. How can you beat that? Fermanator, I owe you one... I'll PM you my address. THANK YOU !!!!!!!!:clap::beer::clap:

Oh, as an added note... This motor has a CDI PowerPac on it.. and it works great... only problem is that this particular model powerpac (113-6212) that's on the engine calls for the engine to be a 1993 or newer unit.
Not a 1991. So now I don't know what the hell I have. (I'm pretty sure it's an outboard motor) The I.D. quest continues......<sigh>

[THEFERMANATOR]

LOL I love this site... It's better than a yard sale. Everyone sends everyone everything. I just sent Macojoe the main driven gear for his powerwinch for the cost of postage and now I can get a set of carbon reeds for the same price. How can you beat that? Fermanator, I owe you one... I'll PM you my address. THANK YOU !!!!!!!!:clap::beer::clap:

Oh, as an added note... This motor has a CDI PowerPac on it.. and it works great... only problem is that this particular model powerpac (113-6212) that's on the engine calls for the engine to be a 1993 or newer unit.
Not a 1991. So now I don't know what the hell I have. (I'm pretty sure it's an outboard motor) The I.D. quest continues......<sigh>

The extra set of reeds I have are steel ones I removed. I do have a set of BOYESENS as well, but I was trying to hang on to them for the 225 I'm redoing. As for the power pack, from 88-01 they were all the same except for the connectors that they used. You can swap in a late model stator and use the late model pack on any of the 88-01 though.

[Destroyer]

The extra set of reeds I have are steel ones I removed. I do have a set of BOYESENS as well, but I was trying to hang on to them for the 225 I'm redoing. As for the power pack, from 88-01 they were all the same except for the connectors that they used. You can swap in a late model stator and use the late model pack on any of the 88-01 though.

Ahh, ok... np.. I still want to get the carbon ones if I can, so that will be my first choice.. Lets see what I can turn up before we talk about steel reeds.. :head: Thanks for the info on the CDI !!! The stator is a later model, so that explains things...Cool!!:party:

[Destroyer]

$209 about right for a set of carbon reeds for the engine? :head:

[THEFERMANATOR]

$209 about right for a set of carbon reeds for the engine? :head:

That's what I paid for mine. I believe you can buy them cheaper through JAY SMITH RACING though.

http://www.jaysmithracing.com/

[Destroyer]

Thanks for the link.. I'll give them a shot. BTY, based upon the cowl I've narrowed the engine down to: 200TX, 200CX, 225T, 225P.

Which brings me to an interesting question. If the engine is a 200, and it's got 225 carbs on it, does that change the HP of the engine?

Specifically, what I'm thinking is that since the venturi of the 225 carbs is wider than the 200 carbs the airflow thru the venturi is going to be less. What I mean is that if the engine is in fact a 200 then it will require x amount of air to run. By making the venturi larger with the 225 carbs the engine will draw the same amount of air in, (because that's controlled by the engine's displacement), but the air velocity through the venturi area will be different, due to the larger opening. The engine will be able to breath easier, which may be a good thing, but will the engine still have enough vacuum to properly break up the fuel from the main jet as it enters the air stream in the venturi?
Damn, my head is swimming now... <sigh> You shouldn't do this to an engineer... it's bad for our sanity....:devil:

[THEFERMANATOR]

The ONLY difference between a 200 and 225 IS the carbs, that's it. If you run the smaller carbs it's a 200 and the medium carbs is a 225(large carbs were only used on early HO style engines). And as far as powerheads go, from 86 to about 93 they easily interchanged with each other. And even the late model powerheads can be swapped in if you have the correct driveshaft for the crankshaft in the engine. So who knows exactly what engine you have. That's the thing with the OMC's, there was a HUGE parts interchangeability with them.

[Destroyer]

Well, that explains things... I'm thinking that it was a 200 rebuild and then they bumped it up to a 225 for that last oz of thrust... I am sooooo tempted to pull the engine and put my 200 Merc on.. that's a $0 conversion.. just time and maybe some bolts and stuff... Still, I think I'm going to fix this engine, even though fixing it is keeping me from fishing <sigh>...
decisions.. decisions :head:

[Destroyer]

Ok.. New (used) carbs are on order. Found a really nice set of 200 carbs (2 screw butterfly plates) off a 1990 200hp Johnson. Made an offer, got all 6 at a really good price.. complete set, bodies, bowls, throttle plates and linkage. Should have it before next weekend.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Destroyer511/Carbs/carb1.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Destroyer511/Carbs/carb2.jpg

Lets see what happens... Who knows, maybe I'll make the fall bluefish/striper run... <sigh> :head:

[Skools Out]

heck i have 3 sets of the 200 carbs on the shelf thought you were looking for the same 225 carbs.

[Destroyer]

heck i have 3 sets of the 200 carbs on the shelf thought you were looking for the same 225 carbs.

DAMN Skools... You never said you had some available... :( I'd have made arraingements with you in a New York minute. I was looking for the 225 carbs, but the only set I was able to find on eBay ...the guy doesn't answer his phone, emails etc.. so I finally got disgusted and bought the 200's. I'm truly sorry.

[Skools Out]

what are you going to do with the burned 225 carbs? i might could use them for a couple parts.

[Destroyer]

what are you going to do with the burned 225 carbs? i might could use them for a couple parts.

My hopes are that some time in the future I can find 2 good carb bodies and upgrade the motor back to a 225. So I plan on keeping the unburned units. The two burned units I was going to probably just throw out. If you want them they are yours for the postage...Just let me make sure I have a functioning engine before I ship them out.

[Skools Out]

ok thanks. let me know

[Destroyer]

Update:
Installed the carbs, still getting (as expected) spitting from the numbers 1 and 6 carbs.
Ordered new reeds from Chris Carson Marine Services.... www.chriscarsonmarine.com (http://www.chriscarsonmarine.com)
Price is $130 for a set, including postage. Gonna try them out and see how they fly. Not your average set of Boysen reeds. Should be here and installed by Wed of next week. :sun:

[RWilson2526]

Dont fret , if you dont get that baby runnin soon you are formally invited for a fall striper trip on my boat.

[Destroyer]

Dont fret , if you dont get that baby runnin soon you are formally invited for a fall striper trip on my boat.

Rob, even if I do get it running that sounds like a lot of fun...I'll even bring the beer or whatever you drink, along with splitting the cost for gas. Thanks for the offer :)

These reeds are supposedly better than Boysens.. They are on commercial boats with over 1000 hr's on them and no leaks.. Special glass fiber and resins..super fine weave...5 layers.

[THEFERMANATOR]

CCMS reeds are simliar to the TDR reeds that I run. He hasn't been making them for that long yet, so his prices are still low compared to the rest. The only advantage to BOYESENS are that they are fiber nd won't blow your engine when one breaks.

[Destroyer]

CCMS reeds are simliar to the TDR reeds that I run. He hasn't been making them for that long yet, so his prices are still low compared to the rest. The only advantage to BOYESENS are that they are fiber nd won't blow your engine when one breaks.

Ya Ferm.. when I spoke to him on the phone he was upright and said as much about the length of time he's been making them. Actually gave me a brief history of his company, etc. Good ol boy, nice to talk to. These reeds are a new material he's using, not the standard 3 or 4 layer printed circuit board stuff that Boysen is using. It's designed at it's manufacture to flex, and it's a super fine 5 layer weave, so there's a lot less fatigue. I called TDR and couldn't get through, so after almost an entire day of getting the answering maching I said f this and called CCMS. It's gonna be interesting to see how these things work. Maybe I'll have to do the job again with TDR's, or maybe we'll have a new source to reeds.. I'll keep everyone updated as time passes. His prices are certainly better.. almost half of Boysens price and more than half of TRD's. I figure it's worth the gamble. If I can get the preformance on these that you get on your TDR's I figure I'm ahead of the game. If not I can always switch them out and chalk it up to experience. :head:

[RidgeRunner]

You will love Chris Carson's Reeds. They are top shelf and their reeds are too.

[Destroyer]

You will love Chris Carson's Reeds. They are top shelf and their reeds are too.

Update: They came in today.. good looking, and for the hell of it I put them under a microscope to look at the edges.. nice and sharp, no fraying @ 100 power. Can't wait for the gaskets to arrive so I can put these bad boys in. :sly:

[Destroyer]

OK... Update time.. Carbs are rebuilt and the gaskets finally came in.. (First set got lost in the mails). Everything is ready to install today.. will update with pics later as the job progresses... Who knows.. maybe I'll have a (working) boat by tomorrow. :head:

[Mikeyz]

Plastic carbs, W.T.H. I hope you get it going. I guess they did that to save some money maybe? I just don’t understand why they think that would last. I have never been a fan of using plastic parts on a motor but now days everyone is doing it. Look at a new Jeep motor the 3.7 v6 it has a plastic intake manifold.
Mike

[Destroyer]

OK ... mystery solved. Recall that I origionally said that the engine was a 200 hp as per what I was told from the PO. But it was pointed out to me that the carbs were 225's, based on the pics of the butterfly plates clearly showing 3 screws in each butterfly. I thought nothing more of it until today as I was getting ready to install the carbs back onto the engine when I noticed that the 3 good carbs from the old, melted carb set looked like they had a smaller venturi than the 3 new 225 replacement carbs that I was installing. I did some measuring and found that I was right. So what I actually had from the PO was an engine with the 3 screw butterflys of a 225, but the plastic bodies of a 200 mounted onto them.

So here's my questions? What should I be running? Understand, I have a complete set of 200 carbs with 200 (2 screw) butterflys, and a complete set of 225 carbs with 225 (3 screw) butterflys. I know that the 200 should give me better MPG...will I see any great performance difference if I use the 200's instead of the 225's? My thoughts are that if it's ok to do, I'd like to use the 3 screw butterflys. That way I can use either the 200 or the 225 carb bodies, depending on how I want to set up the engine.

Ferm, Spare and Skools... I think this is in your ballparks. I would be greatful for any suggestions or opinions.:head:

[spareparts]

I think Skools is the expert on this subject, but I don't think you'll notice enough difference in fuel usage between the two. I'd go ahead and run the 225 set up. After you get it dialed in, see what your top rpms are, you may be able to reprop due to the added power(between the reeds and the carbs) and add your cruise effeciancy

[THEFERMANATOR]

Go with the 225 carbs as they WILL get you better economy. The 200's will give better throttle response, but don't get as good of milage. Just make sure they are actually 225 mid bores as there are about 4 or 5 different venturi sizes for the plastic carbs. The V-6's used 2 main sizes of carbs, the 200 small bore and 225 mid bores. There was also the infamous 200's early on that came on the 200GT's that were MONSTERS of carbs, but they are not good for much but WOT. Then there are the V-4 carbs which there were some that were almost identical to the V-6 ones, but would be a 1/16 or so smaller or larger than the 225's. vSO make sure all of the venturi's are the same size. And don't mix and match baseplates as the yare calibrated for the carb bodies for air bypass and jetting for idle and mid pull-offs.

[Destroyer]

Thank you both gentlemen, that's exactly what I was looking to know. :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: