Looper Shutdown with a rattle noise

[nymack66]

Hey guys,
I really need help now big time, I took the Boat out today all was working well, made one stop after a 1/2 hour run at 4 to 5000 RPM, it acted really weird and will not start acted like a dead battery.
Waited a few minutes and she fired right up.
Ran for another 1/2 hour trolling and WOT at times.
Around 4000 RPM when it suddenly started to die down with a loud rattling sound, I immediately shut it down.
I try to start it and its making a rattling sound like something is loose inside and it will not start, I did a compression check on the 1 and 3 cylinder both shows around 60 I am completely stump all the plugs looks ok well oiled it did not overheat since I saw it running at 140 degrees.

[cterrebonne]

Hey guys,
I really need help now big time, I took the Boat out today all was working well, made one stop after a 1/2 hour run at 4 to 5000 RPM, it acted really weird and will not start acted like a dead battery.
Waited a few minutes and she fired right up.
Ran for another 1/2 hour trolling and WOT at times.
Around 4000 RPM when it suddenly started to die down with a loud rattling sound, I immediately shut it down.
I try to start it and its making a rattling sound like something is loose inside and it will not start, I did a compression check on the 1 and 3 cylinder both shows around 60 I am completely stump all the plugs looks ok well oiled it did not overheat since I saw it running at 140 degrees.

60 psi, that doesnt sound good, rattling on a looper probably wrist pin or ring failure. i would pull the head on that side and look for the bits and pieces that are impregnated on the piston.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Sounds like it leaned out on yeah. Like I was saying in post #2 about your plugs, that one plug REALLY concerned me from the white on it. When you say it acted like a dead battery after a hard run, that is a direct indicator of a stuck piston. Chances are you smeared it when you tried to start it and it didn't kick right off. The rattling is most likely a smeared piston skirt that is rattling against the cylinder wall. Been there, done that. 140 is hot if that is what it was cruising, an old school looper should run 140-170 at idle and IMMEDIATLEY drop to about 100-120 at 3000-4500 and bump 130 maybe 135 under WOT on a hot day. Pull the head on that side and look for signs of aluminum stuck to the cylinder walls, but the head needs to come off.

Let me know if it's bad, my 140 could be made available if it's bad and you don't want to build it.

[Skools Out]

yep as Ferm said it is shot that 60 psi is a bad sign it should be around 125 psi each

[nymack66]

Ok I will pull the heads and see what exactly whats going on, Could it be a broken reed? Since I found lots of pre-mix oil in the Air baffle ?

[THEFERMANATOR]

A broken reed could have done the damage, but they normally window the block when they go through. Remember that a 2 stroke has 2 different compression sides to it, in front of and behind the piston. A compression test only measures in front of the piston and a broken or missing reed won't affect it unless when it broke it went through the engine and damaged the piston or cylinder. Unfortunately though your compression numbers along with the noise is a bad sign, and most likely means that boring and new pistons is in your future. You may be able to clean them with some acid and put just pistons in it, but I'm not normally that lucky. My 140 looper pops at 150-155 pounds of compression, so that should give you an idea of how far down you are. When you pull the heads look for smeared spots on the cylinder walls, that will be the aluminum from the pistons. It is possible on the looper engines though to pull the pistons out with the powerhead still on the mid.

[reelapeelin]

Another source of a rattling noise could be magnets coming loose under the flywheel...but that would not explain low compression...Ferm's probably right...as usual :party:

[THEFERMANATOR]

Another source of a rattling noise could be magnets coming loose under the flywheel...but that would not explain low compression...Ferm's probably right...as usual :party:

140's didn't suffer this problem as the magnets in them are encased into the flywheel(not epoxied like the 35 amp flywheels), unless somebody installed a 35 amp V6 style charging system.

[reelapeelin]

140's didn't suffer this problem as the magnets in them are encased into the flywheel(not epoxied like the 35 amp flywheels), unless somebody installed a 35 amp V6 style charging system.

Didn't know that re the V-4s...yer right...it did happen on my V-6 :deer:

[Skools Out]

well you can still have a 140 with loose magnets, i have a pair of 140's that both have the 35 amp system and had to re-glue the magnets. never seen them on any 120 / 140 except a 25 inch motor, i've never seen them on a short shaft even though the manual says they made them.

[THEFERMANATOR]

The sea-drives all had the 35 amps systems as well, but not many 120/140's did. I've considered finding a blown V-6 and swapping the stator and flywheel over to my 140 to get the higher output charging system. The factory charging system on the early V4 loopers SUCKS! I got a whopping 1.3 amps at idle, and 3.6 amps at 3500. 5000 got me up to 6.3 and 6100 got me 8.56 amps(I guess just enough to call it a 9 amp system). This was with a new stator and rectifier.

[nymack66]

Sounds like it leaned out on yeah. Like I was saying in post #2 about your plugs, that one plug REALLY concerned me from the white on it. When you say it acted like a dead battery after a hard run, that is a direct indicator of a stuck piston. Chances are you smeared it when you tried to start it and it didn't kick right off. The rattling is most likely a smeared piston skirt that is rattling against the cylinder wall. Been there, done that. 140 is hot if that is what it was cruising, an old school looper should run 140-170 at idle and IMMEDIATLEY drop to about 100-120 at 3000-4500 and bump 130 maybe 135 under WOT on a hot day. Pull the head on that side and look for signs of aluminum stuck to the cylinder walls, but the head needs to come off.

Let me know if it's bad, my 140 could be made available if it's bad and you don't want to build it.

Ferm,
Thanks for the offer PM me please with the details and asking price of your 140 I may just install a new motor at this point and keep mine as a spare.
My bad spell never seem to end, Last week Trailer Stolen, I was in the ER two days later with chest pains , now blown looper !

[reelapeelin]

Ferm,
Thanks for the offer PM me please with the details and asking price of your 140 I may just install a new motor at this point and keep mine as a spare.
My bad spell never seem to end, Last week Trailer Stolen, I was in the ER two days later with chest pains , now blown looper !


Dang Mack...a bad spell fo sho!!...:nut:...hope things turn around for you and glad you got outta the hospital standin' upright!!...

[nymack66]

Thanks ,
Now this Looper wants to send me right back :)

[nipper]

I cannot offer one word of advice here, but just chiming in to say sorry for all your troubles, and glad to hear the chest pains were apparently not too serious. They say bad luck runs in threes, and you have had your three early in the season, so hopefully it is smooth sailing from here on.

[RWilson2526]

Holy cow Andrew, if it wasnt for bad luck you'd have no luck at all. Hang in there, this too shall pass.

[nymack66]

Thanks Guys for all the kind words I am feeling much better. All my test came back negative. Low potassium was the culprit for the chest pains, I have since added OJ and bananas to my diet.
Hopefully they will add potassium to my beer and I be ok.
I pull both heads no sign of damage. Maybe broken reeds ?
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blown%20Engine/DSCF0002.jpg
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blown%20Engine/DSCF0003.jpg
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[spareparts]

check the flywheel nut, make sure the flywheel is tight. I had a merc that was making rattling noises, found out the flywheel was loose, had to replace the flywheel.

[Skools Out]

The sea-drives all had the 35 amps systems as well, but not many 120/140's did. I've considered finding a blown V-6 and swapping the stator and flywheel over to my 140 to get the higher output charging system. The factory charging system on the early V4 loopers SUCKS! I got a whopping 1.3 amps at idle, and 3.6 amps at 3500. 5000 got me up to 6.3 and 6100 got me 8.56 amps(I guess just enough to call it a 9 amp system). This was with a new stator and rectifier.


you can't install a V6 flywheel on a V4 been there and the 35 amp V4 has a smaller flywheel and the V6 will not clear the starter nor the carbs, you must use a V4 35 amp set up


hey post us a pic of your flywheel so we can see which you have. and the pistons and cylinders look fine um will it turn by hand and if so any tight spots?

[nymack66]

Ok I will check tomorrow..

[THEFERMANATOR]

You need to find where your compression was leaking. Broken reeds will not cause low compression unless something is jamming them closed and not allowing any air past.

[nymack66]

Please see the flywheel photos on this link http:\\www.nymack66.com
As for the flywheel been loose I will check since I did pull it off last year !
What is the correct procedure for a compression check I disconnected the fuel line remove left 3 plugs in and connected to one cyl crank the engine about three turns. Is this correct?

[Skools Out]

9 amp charging so not a magnet issue. you could pull the carbs and look at the reeds or heck pull the reed body and look in the cylinders and turn by hand till each rod is at the hole then rock to see if you have a bad rod bearing or loose rod cap. those rod caps use either a 5/16 or 8 mm 12 point socket. must be a 12 point. you can check the torque of the rod cap bolts threw the reed holes as well. that 12 point 8mm is avail. at sears.

[nymack66]

Guys,
Why is it the pistons are really loose ? Is this normal ? Is it possible the previous owner installed the wrong set of pistons in a re-bore sleeves?

[Steplift 72']

Guys,
Why is it the pistons are really loose ? Is this normal ? Is it possible the previous owner installed the wrong set of pistons in a re-bore sleeves?The pistons should not be "really loose" but they will slighly rock. I had a rattling 86' model 140 looper that still had 125 pounds of cranking compression. It turned out that a series of motors in 86' had carbs that ran the motors too lean, mine was one. In the first 6 months it had lost 400 rpm and sounded terrible. The piston tops and cylinders looked perfect but the lean running had worn the motor out in a couple hundred hours.

[THEFERMANATOR]

85 had ALOT of problems with the 140, and 86-early 87 did as well as far as carbs go. If you run the VRO they aren't too bad, but if you pre-mix it makes it worse MUCH WORSE! I spent several days re-jetting my carbs after I swapped from the early style 140 carbs used in 85 only to those that were used in 86 and the first of 87. The domes will be loose, but it's the skirt you have to worry about. If the piston skirts are loose the engine could have decent compression and still not idle. I was gonna mention that your pistons looked awfully loose from your pics, but it's hard to judge from pictures if they are too loose or not. OMC issued a bulletin though to jet up 2 sizes in the mains on the early loopers as the aggressive porting in them caused ALOT of lean out issues.

[Steplift 72']

85 had ALOT of problems with the 140, and 86-early 87 did as well as far as carbs go. If you run the VRO they aren't too bad, but if you pre-mix it makes it worse MUCH WORSE! I spent several days re-jetting my carbs after I swapped from the early style 140 carbs used in 85 only to those that were used in 86 and the first of 87. The domes will be loose, but it's the skirt you have to worry about. If the piston skirts are loose the engine could have decent compression and still not idle. I was gonna mention that your pistons looked awfully loose from your pics, but it's hard to judge from pictures if they are too loose or not. OMC issued a bulletin though to jet up 2 sizes in the mains on the early loopers as the aggressive porting in them caused ALOT of lean out issues.I tried to run the VRO, but while breaking in the new powerhead supplied by OMC, the oiling system on the other motor fouled up and quit working. Thankfully there was 50-1 in the tank for break in. I gave up on the VRO at that point, it alarmed when idling up to the dock after better than 6 hours running without consuming a drop of oil! I've used pre-mix on every motor since. Never another problem with those motors, I believe that aggressive porting must have been very efficient....they really performed and the pair used 15 gph at 4000 rpm with 17p SSTII's. Those 97' model loopers I had ran no where near the early model motors.

[THEFERMANATOR]

I tried to run the VRO, but while breaking in the new powerhead supplied by OMC, the oiling system on the other motor fouled up and quit working. Thankfully there was 50-1 in the tank for break in. I gave up on the VRO at that point, it alarmed when idling up to the dock after better than 6 hours running without consuming a drop of oil! I've used pre-mix on every motor since. Never another problem with those motors, I believe that aggressive porting must have been very efficient....they really performed and the pair used 15 gph at 4000 rpm with 17p SSTII's. Those 97' model loopers I had ran no where near the early model motors.

Yep, the 85-87 had the small 3.5" bore in them and the porting was pretty aggressive in the intake, but they had a BIG exhaust that was VERY efficient at cruise and up. The early motors were a bit doggy off idle and the 85 was pretty dead until 3600, but once the R's were up they would RUN. Another BIG issue with the early engines was the carbs and the fact that it was a completely new design for outboards, let alone new for OMC in general. The plastic carbs with aluminum bases became standard after that on loopers, but up until 85 it was brand new and not really tested much. Once you get the jetting down though they are GOOD on fuel and perform pretty good. And it seems like ALL of these loopers like a little different jetting once broke in.

[nymack66]

The lower connecting rod number 4 cylinder was almost completely loose on the crank, it spun the bearing 1/2 inch off and froze to the crank, melted the bearings and was at the point to break free!
At this point I will swap in a re-build power head, the previous owner of this engine was one loose cannon base on issues I had with this engine, wrong lower unit now this.
I will post the pictures tonight.
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blown%20Engine/DSCF0013.jpg
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blown%20Engine/DSCF0015.jpg

[Steplift 72']

The lower connecting rod number 4 cylinder was almost completely loose on the crank, it spun the bearing 1/2 inch off and froze to the crank, melted the bearings and was at the point to break free!
At this point I will swap in a re-build power head, the previous owner of this engine was one loose cannon base on issues I had with this engine, wrong lower unit now this.
I will post the pictures tonight.
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blown%20Engine/DSCF0013.jpg
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blown%20Engine/DSCF0015.jpg
I don't guess you can blame everything on VRO......but were you running the injection or pre-mix? Wrong lower unit??

[nymack66]

Yes wrong lower unit from a previous post.

[shaneburris74]

NYMack,
Sorry about all your troubles. I haven't been on in a while so I thought I would check in with yall. I don't see that anyone answered you on your compression check question.
You should have all the plug wires removed and be at WOT. Everything I read said to make sure the wires don't arc back to the engine, so I put electrical tape on mine. There is a ton of info. on it if you google it. Looks like you found your problem though.
As for me..my transom repair is still in the works..lol..I spent all the money I had saved up on dirt bikes for me and my kids because I didn't think the state of Georgia was gonna register the boat. Well, ..they registered it..now I gotta save some money back up and re-do the transom amongst other things. I'll be checking in on the site though.
I missed the t-shirt sales again this year..thats crappy. Be good.

[nymack66]

Thanks guys for all your help, I decided to replace the power head with a re-build.
I am now using this down time to replace all the little things on the engine that is old or that I think will enhance the longevity of the new motor like all the check valves, flame arrestor hoses, reeds etc
Hopefully all the parts are here this weekend and I will assemble it.
In the mean time I am helping a friend restore a condo, finished the tiling and moving on to hardwood floors.

[nymack66]

Its all bolted up, However I ordered some reeds and one set is missing halted the rebuild this weekend I am so pissed.
Question on the fuel mix for the break in period any ideas ? 50-1 or 25-1 ?
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/New%20Engine/DSCF0002.jpg
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[THEFERMANATOR]

40:1 would be fine for the break in. Also go easy on it for the first 30 minutes or so, she will be running HOT when she is burning the assembly oil off and the initial ring seating.

[nymack66]

40:1 would be fine for the break in. Also go easy on it for the first 30 minutes or so, she will be running HOT when she is burning the assembly oil off and the initial ring seating.

Ferm,
Thanks for all your help 40:1 it is, I am installing Boyesen Reeds any special tips on the air jets etc ?

[THEFERMANATOR]

Ferm,
Thanks for all your help 40:1 it is, I am installing Boyesen Reeds any special tips on the air jets etc ?

My best advice about BOYESENS is DON'T RUN EM! I ran a set in my 225 and got about 5 hours out of em before it started coughing at idle. Get a set of Tony Doukas reeds and be done with it for good. Also be ABSOLUTELY certain which reeds you have as 85 and some 86's had the oddball reeds in em.

http://www.bansheedepot.com/default.asp

[nymack66]

Ferm, The reeds I purchased is BOYESEN PART# B146 Petals: 6 (Stock reeds removed 6 petals)
Base on the above information which reeds do I need to purchase from Tony Doukas ?

[THEFERMANATOR]

I believe the 6 petals are the standard style. Give him a call and he will know which ones you need. The TDR reeds use the factory hardware and reed stops, so make sure you save those. I know the TDR's idle better than stock, but not as good as the BOYESENS's do for there first hour of run time(after an hour of running my idle started slipping down). The throttle response though from the TDR's is UNBELIEVEABLE, and the power is smooth since they are single stage reeds. I know my engine used the 103's, but this was a 12 pack of reeds.

[Skools Out]

my 87 Evinrude 140 had a set of Boyesen reeds they worked great in mine never had the first issue but break them in as the directions tell you too.

[nymack66]

Looks like I am stuck with the Boyesen reeds since I just called the seller and he will not accept a exchange or refund at this point, also I am missing a set of reeds from the original package

[nymack66]

Can any one please confirmed my recirculation hoses connection ?
Please see the pictures below I simply cannot trust the previous owner at this point for anything.
From the bottom (lower bearing) 1 inch length hose to a T with a check valve connecting up to the Top bearing housing (larger hose)
The little T piece (smaller hose) splits over to the lower intake (cyl 4) and again connected to plain T valve (smaller hose) one side of the T is connected to the check valve on the #4 Cyl the other end of the T connects to nipple on the block #3 Cyl
Number 3 intake connects from check valve directly to #4 Cyl nipple
Number 2 intake connects from check valve directly to #1 Cyl nipple
Number 1 intake connects from check valve directly to #2 Cyl nipple
Reason for me asking the manual shows nothing in regards to the correct connections can some one compare it please ?
Look carefully you can see the blue tie wraps to the check valves
Picture One
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blogs%20Links%20Only%20Do%20not%20move/DSCF0006.jpg
Picture 2
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blogs%20Links%20Only%20Do%20not%20move/DSCF0008.jpg
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/Blogs%20Links%20Only%20Do%20not%20move/DSCF0006.jpg

[nymack66]

I have posted the same questions to the pros on other sites so far no has a clue ! Can any one check his or her engine and let me know please ? I basically is hooking it up back exactly how it was but I am not sure if the previous owner did it correctly ? The Seloc and Evinrude manual does mentioned it and clearly states its importance in regards to lube and proper idle however no diagrams showing the proper hookup.
Thanks

[THEFERMANATOR]

What you have there looks correct. Make sure and replace that tee in the line that runs from the bottom to the top though, if the check valve goes bad you can starve the upper bearing of oil.

[nymack66]

Thanks Ferm

[nymack66]

Guys, I fired the motor up in the driveway today , sounds great and starts very easy, problem is she now idles at 3000 RPM with the butterflies completly close and the idle adjustment screw all the way in!
I am currently jetted at .32 for idle and .20 for intermediate
Reason for me asking is Boyesen instructions mentioned on Evinrudes I must reduce the idle jets .5 sizes down and I did not, also I am over jetted currently at .32 hopefully that make sense due to Ferm and I addressing a loading up issue on the old power head which has since blown up and I replace with this new one and I did not downsize on the idle jets
Question is has anyone experience this before? If I reduce the idle jets will this drop my idle rpm's ?

[THEFERMANATOR]

If I reduce the idle jets will this drop my idle rpm's ?
Yes. Chances are it is running pretty lean and will sneeze on you pretty badly when you put it in the water. With the BOYESENS you need to keep it jetted rich as a lean sneeze WILL blow out the BOYESEN reeds(The TDR's don't seem to suffer from this as they are MUCH thicker and made from epoxy). IIRC stock idle jets should be 28's, I would start there and see what she does. Also remember that after break in you will probably need to play with the jets some. I would also swap out your mids for a set of 16's or 14's as the 86 140 carbs were known to be lean in the mid range and would occasionally stall on accel. And run 63's in your mains if the engine was bored.

[nymack66]

Ok I will down size the idle to .28 and the mid to .16 and test
Thanks

[Skools Out]

what mains do you have 62D? as ferm said get the 63's and you are running double oil right. you need to run double oil for the first 25 to 30 hours and no WOT for more than 40 sec on water until you have about 15 to 20 hours.

[nymack66]

Ok thanks, my high speed jets are 64d

[nymack66]

what mains do you have 62D? as ferm said get the 63's and you are running double oil right. you need to run double oil for the first 25 to 30 hours and no WOT for more than 40 sec on water until you have about 15 to 20 hours.
Double Oil ? Is this 100:1 ? I ran 40:1 for about an hour now the engine at times will not turn with the starter seems tight ? I can however turn it with my hands and she fired right up. I am afraid the motor is locking up on me so should I increase it to 100:1 the rebuild company told me to use 50:1 , I decided to play it safe and run 40:1. Your thoughts ?

[phatdaddy]

if 50:1 is normal, twice the oil is 25:1

[THEFERMANATOR]

25:1 is double oil. I quit double oiling awhile back as I had 2 engines seize up on me from double oiling. Oil burns hotter than gas does and also makes your fuel mixture thicker which causes your engine to lean out under load. It will also cause excess carbon build-up if you don't run some sort of de-carboning additive through the fuel.

[nymack66]

25:1 is double oil. I quit double oiling awhile back as I had 2 engines seize up on me from double oiling. Oil burns hotter than gas does and also makes your fuel mixture thicker which causes your engine to lean out under load. It will also cause excess carbon build-up if you don't run some sort of de-carboning additive through the fuel.

Thanks guys, Ferm should I use 40:1 or 25:1 ? I did see some carbon on the plugs from the 40:1 with just under two hours on it ! I am really concerned about the lock up on the engine ?

[Skools Out]

i'd run 25:1 up to you that's what i've run in all the motors i've rebuilt with never a motor issue.

[nymack66]

I install a rebuild power head , during the break 24:1 oil premix , If I run the engine for hours variable throttle the engine runs like it should, shut-off fires right back up , however if I let it sit for 15 to 20 minutes it will not crank period , manually turn the engine my hand tight i can feel it.
Once it cools down from 145 degrees to 120 degrees it fires right up
Question is is this normal ?
I am certainly not overheating since 145 degrees for a block that is just shut-off I have new gauges and senders installed on both starboard and port side of the block , At the time of the shut-off the temp is 130/125 , with the engine off it rises to 135/145 that's when it locks up not even the starter can turn it .
Should I be concerned or this is normal ?

[THEFERMANATOR]

I would be concerned. Who did the build? Sounds to me like somebody didn't check the ring end gap and the rings are sticking once shut off. And 145 is not even remotely hot for one of these engines, IIRC it should be running around 150-160 at idle and then drop off to 100-125 above 3000.

[nymack66]

I would be concerned. Who did the build? Sounds to me like somebody didn't check the ring end gap and the rings are sticking once shut off. And 145 is not even remotely hot for one of these engines, IIRC it should be running around 150-160 at idle and then drop off to 100-125 above 3000.

Powerhead Exchange in Tampa ..

[THEFERMANATOR]

Powerhead Exchange in Tampa ..

They used to do good work, I used to use them as my machine shop as well. Was it Lou you dealt with or Vaughn? I have had some problems with pistons that I got from them in the past though with em sticking for no apparent reason.

[nymack66]

They used to do good work, I used to use them as my machine shop as well. Was it Lou you dealt with or Vaughn? I have had some problems with pistons that I got from them in the past though with em sticking for no apparent reason.

It was Vaughn seems like a real nice guy, But its time like this when one is expose , I left a voice mail for him so far no return call ..

[Skools Out]

yeah sounds like a piston issue from out of round issue. i had that in a 120 i rebuilt it was a bad run of wisco pistons they made them good but lot of extra work.

[nymack66]

I hope all is well local guys telling me its alright.
The builder assured me it was one of the best block he worked on in a long time. He does his own boring etc so can't blame the other guy. I can't wait to hear what he has to say, the engine turned freely by hand when he delivered it.
Looks like I have to build my own motor !
Contingency plans in the works maybe ?
I have my old block all strip down ready for a acid bath, re-hone, shave the heads and polish the crank as a backup grab a re-build kit on flea bay and build it myself.
At this point I am still Boating and hoping for the best !

[THEFERMANATOR]

Did Vaughn ever make the engine right for you NYMACK?

[nymack66]

Oh yes he did, it was a stuck float on the #3 carb all is now well thanks for asking ..