repower question...

[reyb]

Ahhh, I can finally post....there is a god (macojoe) :)...

I have a '89 CC with an '89 Mercury Blackmax 150. I'm thinking of repowering and I'm currenly looking at the following options

1. e-Tec 150....nice motor, ~410lbs, nice price too :(

2. Suzuki DF 140... 6 yr warranty, price is decent(~$8k), ~420llbs

3. Suzuki DF 150/175 ...6 yr warranty, $9K, ~480lbs

I looked around on previous posts but couldn't find the answer...what the max weight rating of the transom?

Thanks,

Rey

[Airslot]

There was never a Max Weight Rating, but Max power was generally 235. Those motors weighed less than 450. There have been other members here that have repowered with the Zuke 150 and the weight hasn;t been a problem. That 480 is about as heavy as you want to go as anything over 500#'s has generally caused complaints from the owner.

JMHO

[macojoe]

Mac Attack went with the E tec 150 and is as happy as a clam!! Lumber went with the E Tec 200 and is also happy!!

Man I wish I had your problem!!

Good Luck!

[cterrebonne]

E-tec especially over zuki, reason, you probably have a dealer near by and by far BRP is the easiest to deal with when it comes to warranty. if would go with the 150 unless you went with the 200H.O. if you are talking about the 200 small block just get the 150. also parts are cheaper when it breaks out of warranty.

[spareparts]

if you go etec, make sure you have a good etec dealer, lots of etec problems go back to the installation, set up, and the guys working on the engine. If they don't sell alot of etecs, they may not know everything they ned to know about them. Resist the temptation to buy an etec from a website dealer, you need to have a good relationship with the local dealer, don't pi$$ him off by showing up with an engine sold by an internet competitor

[reyb]

Thanks for the replies. A friend of mine has the E-Tec 250 and I'd have to say it is nice, but the warranty is half of that of the Suzuki (3yrs vs 6yrs) and I think the price diff is in the neighborhood of ...$2-3k?? I don't like the idea of the engine nearing 500lbs with the Suzukis, but 6yrs and $2-3k in my pocket...decisions decisions decisions...

[nipper]

Go with the Zuke and use the extra $ you save to put trim tabs on her.

[reelapeelin]

A tough decision to be sure, but the guys above have said it for me...depends on the dealer...which dealer will you want to work with over time?...which will do a better job on install...all the outboards being made today are good...it'd be more difficult to find a bad one...if it was my decision and dealers were equal, I'd slam that E-Tec on there quicker than grease thru a goose...

[spareparts]

just curious, I noticed you haven't mentioned the 150 Yamaha, any reason why?

[Boston Habba]

Repowered with zukidf140. This is my second season. Could not be happier. I have dealer about 30 miles away in Salem Mass.

[phester]

reyb, what's your price on the 150 E-tec? Curious.

[randlemanboater]

I am VERY pleased with my Johnzuki 140. (Johnson stickers on a Suzuki motor)

Pushes the V 40 mph, gets 5 mpg, quiet as a mouse, and......I don't pour oil everywhere when having to fill up the oil reservoir.:beer:

[Mac_Attack]

I went with the E-tec because of a dealer being nearby and at the time they offered an extended warranty. Many of e-tec problems are dealer errors, make sure they a reputable. Before my e-tec I had a Zuke 40 great motor no problems with it for 18years. Weight is no issue with the E-tec 150. Good Luck! Billy Mac :beer:

[reyb]

spareparts: I didn't consider a yamaha because some posts I've read here and there
were not favorable(e.g. reliability, weight). However, I'll take a closer look.

phester: I've been looking around for a while and I seem to recall that the e-tec was
around $12k. I haven't looked recently so it might be cheaper. I did try to
find a more recent price but haven't found it yet.

A 140hp sounds appealing but I wonder if it would be enough during those times I have
4 250-pounder guys on board :)

[cterrebonne]

Thanks for the replies. A friend of mine has the E-Tec 250 and I'd have to say it is nice, but the warranty is half of that of the Suzuki (3yrs vs 6yrs) and I think the price diff is in the neighborhood of ...$2-3k?? I don't like the idea of the engine nearing 500lbs with the Suzukis, but 6yrs and $2-3k in my pocket...decisions decisions decisions...

5 year warranty right now with the e-tec and a free I-command guage upgrade for free untill december i believe.

man reyb i must commend you on not thinking yamaha outboards are the messiah is the boating industry.

[randlemanboater]

I have had over 1300 pounds worth of humans in mine with no problem....you can tell you are loaded more, but it pops right up and goes.....I think it has to do with the gear ratio....2.59 to 1.

I didn't try a top speed run with that many people onboard, I'm sure it would have a slower top speed.

[Mac_Attack]

Just another thought of mine,my E-tec was made in Wisconsin. Keep our jobs here. Billy Mac :beer:

[Skools Out]

I'd go Yamaha first then E-tec. The Yamaha is probally the most reliable. The 150 in both their 2 and 4 strokes are best on fuel and both are a tie for power and fuel use.

[cterrebonne]

The 150 in both their 2 and 4 strokes are best on fuel and both are a tie for power and fuel use.

i hate to knock your opinion, but i have to say that yamaha is no comparison to the etec 150 on power. they are tic and tac with reliability.
i see it everyday overhere, if i had had to rely on paying people by just working on E-tec's i wouldnt have much in service. fuel use like you said will be close. but when your trim motor goes out yamaha will want $500 plus and BRP will be around 200 for the exact same part with different connections on the end.
plus i dont like to feed my engines rice.

[reyb]

Found the following website that has a comprehensive list of outbaords. It seems that the 150 outboard in the different makes is roughly the same at $9k. The Suzuki 140 is $7k.

http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/yard_sale_motor_prices.htm

I'm in agreement with buying "Made in USA". I wonder if the Suzukis are made here since I've seen the reference to "Johnzuki".

[bradford]

That's not a bad price. does it include controls, prop, gauges, etc.??

[reyb]

I didn't see anything about including controls/prop, so I don't think it is. However, as cterrebone mentioned, the e-tec has a special going on...5 year warranty and free I-guage. That seems like a pretty good deal. In addition to that, a $300 rebate if you're a TBF/TFW member....I'd join just for the rebate :)

[spareparts]

around here the Yamaha is king, the suzukis coming in second, the verados have become the "price motor" and most people around here wouldn't have an e-tec if you gave them one. But that is the general consinsus, based on peoples opinions, not facts. There is only one dealer here that I would trust with an e-tec and they do an excellent job with an excelent product(although expensive), there are a ton of people that will work on Yamahas around here, the suzuki dealers are the same dealers that handle Yamaha, so they are about the same. The mercury dealers generally are the carpet, vynil, and sticker boat dealers, you ususally have to wait in line behind the customers with the big payment books to get your motor looked at. For me personally, I'd look at an Opti max first, then the 175 Suzuki. Funny thing, nobody even considers Honda on a repower, one of these days Honda is going to realize how much of the market ther are letting yamaha and suzuki take and get serious about it.

[Seacrets]

Cterre, maybe the reason you're not seeing many Etecs in your shop is there aren't many in the field. Somebody has to buy them for you to work on them. If this board is an indicator, there are only a few Etec owners here. Maybe Evinrude should compare an Etec 2 stroke to a Yamaha or Mercury 2 stroke. I think the results may be a little different. I think you'll see that Yamaha has many more four stroke outboards in the field than Evinrude Etecs. Unfortunately, the Fichts put them in a hole and their market share dropped. What I see is it's a four stroke marketplace with Yamaha, Suzuki, Verado, and Honda. I do however think BRP is trying to do it right, especially with warranty issues. I think it's difficult to give a 5 yr warranty when Etecs haven't been on the market that long. In my area of Florida, 90% of the guides are running Yamahas, some with upwards of 3000 hrs on them. A friend recently removed a Yamaha 2 stroke (with no major repairs) from his boat with 4800 hrs on it. I know Evinrude makes a statement about no maintenance for 300 hrs, what about the typical guy that puts 50 hrs a year on an outboard? Six yrs w/o maintenance, could that be true? This post is just my $.02. When it comes down to it, it's a matter of good dealer and factory backup and personal preference. It is nice to keep the business in the USA, however, guess where the final money goes, Canada.

[Skools Out]

i hate to knock your opinion, but i have to say that yamaha is no comparison to the etec 150 on power. they are tic and tac with reliability.
i see it everyday overhere, if i had had to rely on paying people by just working on E-tec's i wouldnt have much in service. fuel use like you said will be close. but when your trim motor goes out yamaha will want $500 plus and BRP will be around 200 for the exact same part with different connections on the end.
plus i dont like to feed my engines rice.


you didn't read it hello

the 150 2 and 4 stroke YAMAHA'S are close in power and fuel usage. If ya wish I have the number for the factory Yamaha guy I know at Morehead City. That's all he does is test boats all day with different motors.

[cterrebonne]

just to correct some statements seacrets. brp's intentions were never to say they were other 2-stroke slayers, their main goal was to show that 4-strokes are gods gift to the outboard world. That people do have alternatives. also we sell yam's and brp's here. we sell about 3 etec's to every yamaha. for our case dealing with our customers in the market we see more problems with yamaha's.
all this talk about how e-tecs havent been out for a while is not completely accurate. they have had the same theory out behind their injection system since the fichts came into the market.(etec has been out since 04) E-tec is just the evoloution of ficht technology. also its 3yrs or 300 hours which ever arrives first. i have owned yamaha's and omc/brp's and merc's on various boats. they all eventually will give you an issue, just make sure you have someone who is knowledgeable to fix them. like you said seacrets warranty and service. the corporate income tax might be collected in canada but it does create jobs in US.

[reelapeelin]

Hey Spare!!...one of us considered Honda on a repower

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/reelapeelin/IMGP05992.jpg

:hi:

[spareparts]

those are a rare sight down here, I don't hear anything bad about them, just don't see that many, heard they had a new 90? that had the best power to weight ratio for any 4 stroke, i haven't seen one.

And back to the issue, try to sell a used e-tec aournd here, vs a a used Yamaha, your phone will ring off the hook for the Yamaha, you won't get a call on the e-tec. personally like I said, opti first, then zuki 175, then yamah 150. I've run them all.

[reyb]

Anyone know of a good dealer in the San Diego area? Too bad that Ed's Marine place doesn't ship as it seems they have some pretty good deals.

[randlemanboater]

My Johnson, which is sold by BRP (a Canadian company) says "made in Japan" right on the serial number plate.

OK, so all you guys talking junk about my rice burner fess up, how many of you own a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc, car or truck?

[Seacrets]

I just filled my tank today and my F115 Yamaha averaged 5.9 mpg (19.2 gal and 113 miles). My skiff (23') is light so I don't need alot of hp. It will still top out at 40-42 mph. To me, its a matter of economics, I get to fish alot more for the same cost as my V20 w/ a 150 HP Merc saltwater series on it. The 113 miles represents two fishing trips this week and I'm going again tomorrow. We also have an outstanding Yamaha dealer in our area with a good parts inventory and an excellent service dept.
One thing I don't think anybody mentioned, when repowering with a new motor, you might have spent double what your boat is worth. If you sell in a couple of years, you might take a bath on the sale. If I lived in the north with a short boating season, I don't know if I'd repower with new. That's a lotta money to be setting under a tarp part of the year. Maybe a good topic might be "How many hours did you boat this year". Is the number more or less than last year?
There's no doubt, Etec, Optis, Verados (supercharged) and four strokes are the way to go, if you're looking for modern technology and economy.

[macojoe]

I am a north guy, I have bought my share of used motors, and you are right, it seems like a waste to cover the thing for 7 months of the year!! But I am tired of every year getting broke down right in the middle of the season!!

If it was me,I would be Yamaha, Etec, Suzy, Mercury is no were on my list!!

[reyb]

I've thought of those things as well...~$10k for a new motor and the amount of time I spend out in the water...if I ever sell the boat I would basically take a loss. I want reliability and economy and not have to worry about breaking down or running low on fuel. I went fishing recently and covered about 80 miles. Reading the posts, I'm suppose to have a 60gal tank. At the end of my trip my fuel gauge read about 1/4 tank. My gauge may not be accurate, but that would put me at about 1.7 miles to the gallon. :( 80 miles is not a lot of range based on the location of fishing spots here.

Other things I've thought about are:

o Do I just sell the boat and buy another that has a nice motor?

o I like my V20 CC. I got an aluminum trailer for it, put a T-top on it and made a
custom bait tank.

o If I buy another boat, then who knows about the condition of the motor. With a new
motor I basically know.

o I have some buddies that have a 24' cuddy with a new 250 e-tec. I do go fishing
a lot with them on their boat so they said I don't really need my boat(I would buy
in on their boat).

I don't know....:)

[reelapeelin]

Anyone know of a good dealer in the San Diego area? Too bad that Ed's Marine place doesn't ship as it seems they have some pretty good deals.


Time to beat feet around town...I gotta think there's a dealer in that size market who'll work w/you...even if you could buy from Ed's, you're still gonna have to take it somewhere for service eventually...they are obligated to work on 'em no matter where you got it, but you'll probably be put in the back of the line if you got it from somebody else...can't really blame 'em...

[macojoe]

If the boat you have is in good shape and you like then keep it!!

You never know what you are going to get when you start looking And motors go thru a lot of stuff weather they are 20 years old or 1 year old!!

I have a 84 Sea Ox now, I am in love with it and believe it will be the last boat I will ever own!!
I don't have the cash right now so I have added used power to it, but I hope at some point I will add a brand new motor to it!!

Much better then buying new package, for a V20 all new I bet you looking at $30K at least!!

[THEFERMANATOR]

YAMAHA's are pretty proven, but they have NEVER impressed me with there power. There new 4 strokes are quiet though, everytime I go out with my buddy I keep telling him the engine has stalled. SUZUKI's are a good engine as well, but not the greatest dealer support network. BRP is REALLY pushing the ETEC as the greatest thing, but it is still the same basic technology that the FICHT was back in 98. If your after ULTIMATE milage in the 150-175HP range, then I would suggest the OPTIMAX as the #1 canidate. Tests have proven that the 150 OPTI is pretty much KING of economy on fuel and oil(excluding the ETEC set up for XD100). The YAMAHA 150 4 stroke would be a good match I would think as well as the 150 HONDA.

The MAIN question with buying new is warranty and a GOOD dealer. Remember that these new engines can be REALLY good and reliable, but on a direct injected engine a couple of injectors or an EMM will cost almost as much as the engine is worth. Look around and see how many OPTI's you find needing air pumps and injectors for sale because those parts cost more than they can buy a replcement for. Technology is great, but it is a killer as well. You can roll the dice and find a late model used HPDI YAMAHA, OPTIMAX or FICHT and hope for the best. Me personally if you don't use the boat ALOT, then just get a reliable old 2 stroke. For what you save on gas with a new engine, you will spend on the initial cost.

The V4 JOHNNY-RUDES are pretty D@MN reliable and powerful, as well as not being horrible on gas. The 2.0L and 2.4L MERCS can be had for decent money and are decent on fuel as well as a LARGE availability of interchangeable parts. The old tried and true 150 YAMAHA 2 stroke is tough to beat for reliability and durability, and is one of the better 2 strokes on fuel.

Decide what you want to spend, and go from there. All of the new engines are good, just make sure to get a GOOD warranty if you decide to go new. Your current figure of 1.7 MPG isn't that far off from some of the better numbers here as 2 MPG is regarded pretty good economy for a V-20 with a 2 stroke. You may even be able to improve your current set-up to 2 MPG by getting a better designed prop. You would be SHOCKED to see how much extra fuel one nick on your prop will make you use.

ON EDIT: I see you currently have a 150 MERC, so you should have a 2.0L. That is actually a pretty fuel miserly old school 2 stroke. A little time with boat set-up and propping may make a BIG difference in your economy and performance. I have a 150 MERC on a bass boat and it only used 4 GPH at cruise, even on a V-20 I would expect it to stay around 10 or so fopr fuel burn at cruise.

[cterrebonne]

My Johnson, which is sold by BRP (a Canadian company) says "made in Japan" right on the serial number plate.

OK, so all you guys talking junk about my rice burner fess up, how many of you own a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc, car or truck?

i bought my wife an acura, yes, i am a hipocrite. :( , but i have an american truck and outboard, that should make up for it a little bit.

[Seacrets]

Ford, Chevrolet, Yamaha F115. Two outa three. Let's face it, with NAFTA, free trade and all that other junk, who knows where the parts and pieces come from.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Ford, Chevrolet, Yamaha F115. Two outa three. Let's face it, with NAFTA, free trade and all that other junk, who knows where the parts and pieces come from.

My older JEEPS were all CANADIAN parts, even assembled there. My newer ones were all pretty much MEXICO though, and I believe my DAKOTA was built there as well. My SUBURBAN was a MICHIGAN build though.

[reyb]

Anyone have an opinion about the Suzuki 175? Overkill for a V20 CC? It's ~60lbs heavier than the DF 140 and I don't know how much more fuel it would use. There's a '07 Suzuki DF 175 local that can probably be bought for $8k with props and controls. I don't think they are a suzuki dealer and that's why they mentioned 3yr warranty. Regarding the current 6yr warrant being offered, they said it can be 6yrs depending on condition. I assuming that would be if a suzuki dealership would install it.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Anyone have an opinion about the Suzuki 175? Overkill for a V20 CC? It's ~60lbs heavier than the DF 140 and I don't know how much more fuel it would use. There's a '07 Suzuki DF 175 local that can probably be bought for $8k with props and controls. I don't think they are a suzuki dealer and that's why they mentioned 3yr warranty. Regarding the current 6yr warrant being offered, they said it can be 6yrs depending on condition. I assuming that would be if a suzuki dealership would install it.


Nothing wrong with the 175, I've read alot of VERY impressive performance reports lately from repowers with them. As for the warranty, SUZUKI will ONLY give you a warranty if the engine is installed by a SUZUKI certified dealer. ED'S MARINE(not 100% certain, but pretty sure it was him) got into ALOT of trouble for selling new SUZUKIS and not installing them, but instead shipping them to the customers. ED's was sued and court ordered to pay for ALL warranty repairs on those engines and lost there SUZUKI franchise over it. All of the manufacturers have pretty well adopted this policy as so many engines were failing due to improper set-up. If your going to buy new, ONLY buy from a certified reputable dealer.

[CaptJJ]

I firmly believe there is no such thing as "overkill".

[THEFERMANATOR]

I firmly believe there is no such thing as "overkill".

One of our members here would disagree with you. Somebody here tryed a 225 HONDA on a V-20 CC and it was FAR too much weight on the transom. The boat had a surprisingly slow top speed, and poor handling characteristics.

[Seacrets]

The 225 weighed 610 lbs. Can you say, "thru hulls underwater"?

[reelapeelin]

I firmly believe there is no such thing as "overkill".


Well then...can we amend it to say over kill done properly?...

[spareparts]

the 175 zuki wheighs close to the 150, so no or only a small weight penalty over the 150. BTW, I thinks Ed's got in trouble over the Yamaha's, he could have gotten in trouble over both, who knows. I heard Chat-Lee got in a stink a couple of years ago selling e-tecs without installing them

[randlemanboater]

I got my Johnzuki from Chatlee, they loaded it in my pickup for me and sent in the warranty card as well.

[CaptJJ]

Well then...can we amend it to say over kill done properly?...


Thanks for the correction...When I bought my v20 in '89 I had a Yamaha 225hp put on it. The marina I bought it from said it was "overkill" and said the Yamaha was nicknamed "cheater motor" because it was actually putting out between 235-240hp. I never confirmed this. It was a match made in heaven.

When I changed power in '99 it killed me to drop down to the Yamaha 200hp but I did, because the 225 and up would have added all that extra weight.

I miss that extra horsepower.

[reelapeelin]

Thanks for the correction...When I bought my v20 in '89 I had a Yamaha 225hp put on it. The marina I bought it from said it was "overkill" and said the Yamaha was nicknamed "cheater motor" because it was actually putting out between 235-240hp. I never confirmed this. It was a match made in heaven.

When I changed power in '99 it killed me to drop down to the Yamaha 200hp but I did, because the 225 and up would have added all that extra weight.

I miss that extra horsepower.

Bet that was a blast w/a 225 (maybe >) pushin' yer V 20!!...I could stand it!!:sun:

[reyb]

Leaning towards that DF175 because I can get it for $8k and with a warranty. I have a couple of questions though:

1. How much does it usually cost to install an outboard?

2. What would be a good pitch/prop for this motor and a V20 Center Console?


Just got a quote for $975 for an install...too much?

THanks,

Rey

[randlemanboater]

1. Don't know, I put mine on myself.

2. Thats gonna be a trial and error there.....the gear ratio on the 175 is 2.50:1 which is close to the 2.59:1 on my 140, but with the extra ponies, it will need a different prop.

Just as a starting place, I am running a 14" diameter x 21 pitch aluminum prop.

Hopefully your dealer will have some experience with similar rigs and can get close.....if not, just make sure they agree to swap props with you til you get it right.

[reyb]

Did you buy your motor new? If so, since you installed it yourself I assume the warranty was not valid?

[randlemanboater]

Bought it brand new, installed myself, full warranty (which I never needed), but mine is a Johnson and it was in 2003.

I think things are different now.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Things are DEFINATELY different now. In 2003 from JOHNSON you could do just about anything as BRP had virtually no interest in JOHNSON, they were pushing the FICHT technology forward. Around here the average install runs from $2000-$2200 by the time it is all said and done. This cost will include the new cables, harnesses, binnacle, keyswitch, basic instrumentation, rigging the engine, and a test run for warranty purposes. The rigging supplies is what REALLY run's up the cost of an install.

[reyb]

Nice. I wish I had the same opportunity to install myself. $975 is a decent chunk of change for an install. I can't imagine it taking more than a few hours especially for someone who is experienced.

[THEFERMANATOR]

The major costs will be the cables, harnesses, binnacle, keyswitch, and the basic system check tach. There's probably a $1000 worth the parts right there. Then when you start to consider the fact that they may have to make changes and such to accomadate the new power, and there will ALWAYS be unexpected work along the way. That $975 isn't that bad after all. They could easily burn up a full day just installing new rigging, bolting the engine on, and verifying the install. Plus they got you by the cahones when it comes right down to it as they are not allowed to sell you a new engine without installing it if you want a warranty. There are a few online retailers who will sell you one, but they still require you to have it taken to a dealer and the install verified before the warranty will be activated. You could always go to the dealer and buy the rigging parts and put them in yourself so when you go to get your engine all they have to do is bolt it on and connect the cables and harnesses.

And I'm not sure with SUZUKI, but I know that the EVINRUDES will not run until they are factory programmed by the dealer after install.

[cterrebonne]

One of our members here would disagree with you. Somebody here tryed a 225 HONDA on a V-20 CC and it was FAR too much weight on the transom. The boat had a surprisingly slow top speed, and poor handling characteristics.

if the hull is a selfbailer then it might be a problem. i have 750 off the back of mine and it really runs well, BUT, that is thanks to the trim tabs and IMO, if you take your boat into the ocean, gulf, large lakes, trim tabs are without a question a must have.

[THEFERMANATOR]

The center consoles don't handle all that weight off the transom anywhere near as well as the cuddy boats do. Trim tabs are a must though I feel on any boat used offshore.